Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 937
# 81
03-31-2013, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
I think you are wrong. the more I play this game, the more complicated it actually gets. Spacing and zoning is a huge part of combat. I think you may be guilty of oversimplifying the game.

I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle. When a game is simple, then most of the time that you learn something new it will make the game simpler. Very little I learn in this game makes it simpler.

By the way ; discrediting my argument solely on a lack of experience in this specific game is an Ad Hominem-circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy. While it is true that I may not know a lot about STO specifically, that doesn't mean I do not know enough about game balance to be able to recognize it.

While I will certainly be wrong on specific facts of this specific game, my overall statement about balance and how players react to it is valid. It comes from almost 30 years of experience.

You will also note I specifically stated this game may very well have a balance issue, I was just addressing how people were responding to it and how ill equipped most who are critical of the game's balance issues probably just do know how to properly gauge that balance. I have seen a lot of games made actually imbalanced because designers responded to their calls for re-balancing rather than listen to the suggestion of more skilled players.
I agree, even new players will notice right off the bat that something is amiss as soon as they get out of their cru or sci ship and get into an escort with mk X white weapons and faceroll everything without an issue. The other two ship types however have to bend over backwards or end up pidgeonholed into one set that comes close the dps that cannons on escorts offer and that seems to be plasma with romulan sets.
I would like for the devs to open a poll/feedback thread on what exactly the players would like to see in the near future for the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
# 82
03-31-2013, 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1tigglet View Post
I agree, even new players will notice right off the bat that something is amiss as soon as they get out of their cru or sci ship and get into an escort with mk X white weapons and faceroll everything without an issue. The other two ship types however have to bend over backwards or end up pidgeonholed into one set that comes close the dps that cannons on escorts offer and that seems to be plasma with romulan sets.
The thing is, measuring a ships capabilities by DPS is a red herring. It is not always valid, and a lot of people are not realizing the effect they actually are having on a battle because it isn't something overtly obvious.

I do agree that the computer AI has a lot to do with it. We need enemies that make smart decisions rather than just having good tactical choices traded off for one hit kills and extra hit-points.

That causes a double problem ;

A lot of Sci and Eng abilities are rendered useless in PvE.
A lot of deaths that are flat out random. Too much sheer randomness is bad for balance, and it causes resentment. Losing to being outsmarted is not as bad as losing to a coin-flip. You can practice to overcome superior tactics, but you cannot outskill a dice roll.

The times I actually get mad at this game when I get OHKO by some random borg torpedo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 107
# 83 Que?
03-31-2013, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
STO is an incredible deep and complex game...
LoL ! What game are you playing? It certainly isn't STO.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 40
# 84 No true AI yet..
03-31-2013, 08:43 AM
Most MMOs (and other games as well) do not have real challenges. There is no true AI yet lol. Nothing has passed the Turing test to my knowledge

As such all computer opponents can only be scripted and difficulty is a matter of numbers and choosing script paths. And the most reliable way to choose that path in a RNG

The so-called 'trinity' is an old game model whose time is really over. There has always been a problem with it. This is mainly because an MMO cannot afford to shut out solo players. Therefore all 'classes' need to be able to accomplish PVE content on its own. In a game that is about destroying things, and because of the typical 'grindy' nature of an MMO, faster damage becomes preferable.

If you could get Dilithium or Marks for Grav Welling something, or stealing its energy, or healing something, that might go a long way to making non-damage roles more viable.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 85
03-31-2013, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
A lot of Sci and Eng abilities are rendered useless in PvE.
A lot of deaths that are flat out random. Too much sheer randomness is bad for balance, and it causes resentment. Losing to being outsmarted is not as bad as losing to a coin-flip. You can practice to overcome superior tactics, but you cannot outskill a dice roll.
This is a lot of what people are complaining about when they talk about game balance issues. Tanking properly is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, because of that randomness, and any good player in any ship can tank anything short of those random massive hits, so there's generally no point in having a tank. The problem for Sci is that many of the abilities are utterly useless, at least for PvE, and most of the rest are so weak that they don't make much difference, and then there are GW and TBR on small targets, so its nearly impossible to make a sci ship that can operate in a sci role, and you're usually better off with one of the escorts that can run a GW.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,314
# 86
03-31-2013, 09:16 AM
I think one of the problems here is trying to overlay the classic tank/healer/warrior roles onto STO.

It's a little different.

For sure escorts hand out the DPS, as a poster has already pointed out, thats what escorts do.

However, my Ambassador can still find something useful to do.

Whether its keeping those escorts flying.....you can't hand out the DPS if you're dead.

whether its aggroing the Tholians on Azure.....let me drag these annoying ships over here so you can get that BoP free

Whether its merely staying alive surrounded by a bunch of spheres to let the escorts line up their attack runs.

Even adding to the team overall DPS


Its about doing what you can for the team.

Even if the escorts are brushing aside the easy opposition on conduit, sooner or later there'll be a boss ship. And then they're going to be very happy to see an HE or an engineering team come their way.

Basically, even if a particular PvE run is mostly about DPS, its not just about DPS. Not entirely.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,707
# 87
03-31-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle.
It's noisy, not complex. There are buffs, debuffs, damage, and healing, and the complexity comes from lot of ways to do each of them.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,672
# 88
03-31-2013, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
The thing is, measuring a ships capabilities by DPS is a red herring. It is not always valid, and a lot of people are not realizing the effect they actually are having on a battle because it isn't something overtly obvious.
not really, in a game where you are pitting one classes ability to destroy against another then dps is the primary issue. be it direct weapon dps or dps bonuses from debuffs/snares, it is still dps, or heals/resists as damage mitigation.

the balance model they tried to apply is as obvious as its flaws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,875
# 89
03-31-2013, 10:34 AM
The game isn't that complex. They boosted the npcs hp and critical hits, but they don't rotate any healing powers (donatra & queen diamond excepted). All you really need in stf is people stacking pattern beta, use spike damage to take down a shield facing, then give everything you have to the hull. Destroy the heavy torps (AoE for the win), and tank the rest either with your heals (epts, tac team, high hull repair rate and brace for impact for the win) or damage evasion (i.e. escort online). STF will be a breeze if you have team members that do >5k dps each.
Reality is WAR
KHG Klingon Honor Guard
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 90
04-01-2013, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You think making something NECESSARY is the way to FORCE variety, I think making it optional and beneficial but not necessary to better promote variety.

I put up with this forced variety in WoW, STO is different and that's one of its few non IP strenghts.
You can make it necessary or note, it wont change anything. There is only one benchmark value: Time! Players want to be effective, especially in such grindgames like STO now is. While escorts are the fastest and still play most easily, the players also use these and other classes of ships are considered as disadvantaged. Establishes a balance of effectiveness (time) or ensure that the most effective class is to play very very hard.

Just look at WoW! Tanks and healers are necessary. To find a group and start an instance takes much longer because there few players want to play to be tanks or healers. This is not a solution!
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