Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,991
# 31
03-22-2013, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
you guys are missing the entire point.. every good JHAS pilot can do the same in a fleet defiant... you are asking for the wrong thing. You need to ask cryptic to nerf skill and player IQ when using the JHAS or any other ship. That will fix everything! Or perhaps, a more mutual solution would be that you think a little harder about your builds.

Why don't you go and talk to tatum in ker'rat. He is a very good intrepid science captain who does very well against bugs. It can be done.. you just don't want to use an extra brain cell or two.
Notice a common thread in your comment here? Here, let me illustrate:

Try it in a Raptor, or (gods help you) a Bird of Prey.

Call it best six out of ten, can you drop a Bug in a Raptor-ANY Raptor.

Try it again with a Bird of Prey-ANY Bird of Prey.

I can usually out-turn a Fl. Defiant often enough and well enough to take it in a Fl. Norgh, but the Bugship? forget it, and there is no Raptor of any sort that can even come close to taking it if both pilots are of about the same skill level.

Put into some perspective you MIGHT understand...

Running the right weapons, Doffs, and Bridge officer powers, I can take a Fl. Defiant in my Norgh with a surprise alpha when his abilities are on cooldown, and escape if I screwed up and he's running the Elite Fleet shields and doesn't drop. Can't do that against a Bug equipped similarly-neither the takedown, nor the escape (in that 12 sec. while Battlecloak's cooling down, I can't keep out of his front arc OR get enough range to break his lock.)

Now, I'll grant you, a poorly kitted and flown JHAS isn't too bad-it's about on the same level as a well-flown Fleet Defiant or Kumari...

But the issue that puts the salt on your defense of the bug, is spelled "FvK"-the FEDERATION gets ships that are 'kind of close' to the Bugship's overall power. KIND OF close. for the Klinks in the audience, if you want to fly an "escort-like ride" and actually be EFFECTIVE, you have to beg, borrow, or steal to get the Bugship.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 03-22-2013 at 10:58 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,487
# 32
03-22-2013, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
The thing with all of these Jem'Hadar consoles, is that there isn't a whole lot of console space on Jem'Hadar Attack Ships.

If you were to use both of the Jem'Hadar consoles, that would take up two consoles out of the five engineering/science console slots available. Throw in the Zero Point Energy Conduit, Tachyokinetic Converter, and Assimilated Module, and you miss out on other consoles out on other useful passive consoles. If you use tactical console space, you weaken your damage output.

As someone who does not have a JHAS, I do not find them that OP at all. Of course, I would love to have the turn rate and hull (or even a better BOFF layout), but I hold my own against them.
I was refering to the console that gives a TEAM pseudo APO + placate/SS immunity. It has a 3 minute cooldown irrc. Using AP cooldown doffs a team of various Jem ships can roll them ~ every 35 seconds and to close the APO gap, or use 2 back to back after the 1st APO to close that gap completely. Then another APO another 2 back to back gives 2 minutes of most movement debuff immunity and a minute of scramble/placate debuff immunity.

Human Boffs prevent/mitigate abilities that target subsystems. This includes VM effectiveness. So, the 2nd best escort in the damage (in terms of damage potential (not applied where I'd argue it's 1st), boff layout, and movement) now can have a very long time of immunity to the few decent remaining Sci debuffing boff powers designed to counter it's mobility/ability to apply damage/be repaired remotely.

The std counter for Escorts/Raiders used to be Sci abilities, now only SNB is left. SNB is less effective since, since you can use VM to make someone use a ET and placate/Scramble is less effective to make them (or remote repair ally) use a Sci Team (or use the VM/Placate/Scramble after). Cooldown reduction doffs also help in this area.

KDF won't have 5 human boffs (in theory, I haven't tried grinding toons for the sole purpose of seeing if KDF can have more than 1 via Maurading Doff reward). But, think of a group of KDF Jem ships that also have Plas Leech and the 25% shield damage procs going off and tet glider.

These are the best escorts, and again they're only getting better. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 33
03-22-2013, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Notice a common thread in your comment here? Here, let me illustrate:

Try it in a Raptor, or (gods help you) a Bird of Prey.

Call it best six out of ten, can you drop a Bug in a Raptor-ANY Raptor.

Try it again with a Bird of Prey-ANY Bird of Prey.

I can usually out-turn a Fl. Defiant often enough and well enough to take it in a Fl. Norgh, but the Bugship? forget it, and there is no Raptor of any sort that can even come close to taking it if both pilots are of about the same skill level.

Put into some perspective you MIGHT understand...

Running the right weapons, Doffs, and Bridge officer powers, I can take a Fl. Defiant in my Norgh with a surprise alpha when his abilities are on cooldown, and escape if I screwed up and he's running the Elite Fleet shields and doesn't drop. Can't do that against a Bug equipped similarly-neither the takedown, nor the escape (in that 12 sec. while Battlecloak's cooling down, I can't keep out of his front arc OR get enough range to break his lock.)

Now, I'll grant you, a poorly kitted and flown JHAS isn't too bad-it's about on the same level as a well-flown Fleet Defiant or Kumari...

But the issue that puts the salt on your defense of the bug, is spelled "FvK"-the FEDERATION gets ships that are 'kind of close' to the Bugship's overall power. KIND OF close. for the Klinks in the audience, if you want to fly an "escort-like ride" and actually be EFFECTIVE, you have to beg, borrow, or steal to get the Bugship.
So here is why you are wrong.. you are trying to defeat a bug on it's own terms. Please think outside the box and then maybe you will be one step closer to understanding how to defeat it. A bop is versatile and can use science skills to achieve this. How about VM1, and when they are disabled, tractor, PSW3, and finally BO3 followed by torps. I have been defeated recently in my bug like this and didn't even have time to respond. Again, your problem is you are trying to match a bug on it's own terms, and yes, you will lose. Oh.. an it was a BOP that did it. So again, try to be a Kirk and think of how to defeat it. Do you think Kirk sent a message to a romulan shipyard and said "please nerf your design so I can beat your ships!!" I mean.. c'mon.. there is OP and then there are people who just don't know better.

You want everything to be equal? Well sorry, but the only thing that differentiates a bug from a defiant is the defense value when at full stop and turn rate and a shield modifier.. because remember, everyone gets a cap of 80% total defense value which means that a bug will achieve 80% slightly before a defiant. yet all escorts should achieve 80% defense value if they are at least above 25% power (including bonuses).

Bottom line.. I'll be damned if I spent all that money to get the bug just to have it nerfed, so you all better start asking for buffs to your own ships rather than asking for a nerf to mine. End of story!!
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!

Last edited by tfomega; 03-22-2013 at 01:49 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,991
# 34
03-22-2013, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
I was refering to the console that gives a TEAM pseudo APO + placate/SS immunity. It has a 3 minute cooldown irrc. Using AP cooldown doffs a team of various Jem ships can roll them ~ every 35 seconds and to close the APO gap, or use 2 back to back after the 1st APO to close that gap completely. Then another APO another 2 back to back gives 2 minutes of most movement debuff immunity and a minute of scramble/placate debuff immunity.

Human Boffs prevent/mitigate abilities that target subsystems. This includes VM effectiveness. So, the 2nd best escort in the damage (in terms of damage potential (not applied where I'd argue it's 1st), boff layout, and movement) now can have a very long time of immunity to the few decent remaining Sci debuffing boff powers designed to counter it's mobility/ability to apply damage/be repaired remotely.

The std counter for Escorts/Raiders used to be Sci abilities, now only SNB is left. SNB is less effective since, since you can use VM to make someone use a ET and placate/Scramble is less effective to make them (or remote repair ally) use a Sci Team (or use the VM/Placate/Scramble after). Cooldown reduction doffs also help in this area.

KDF won't have 5 human boffs (in theory, I haven't tried grinding toons for the sole purpose of seeing if KDF can have more than 1 via Maurading Doff reward). But, think of a group of KDF Jem ships that also have Plas Leech and the 25% shield damage procs going off and tet glider.

These are the best escorts, and again they're only getting better. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
People find it "hard to understand" because...well...everyone gets shot down once in a while, and from that perspective it doesn't LOOK like you're OP in a bug.

of course, from OUTSIDE the Bugship, well, it's a different story, but the general attitude I've seen in these kind of threads is that whole "You're just Jealous" attitude from the Bug-owners (those NOT freaking out at the thought of all the money/time spent being invalidated by some mythical 'nerfing' of the design, that is...)

People tend to LIKE their privelages -you see a similar reaction to the idea of a Fed Battlecloak, or the threat of the Plas leech console going into a lockbox.


The cosmetic "balancing" factor on the bugship, is the limited number of places to slot the universal consoles-it's a cosmetic, because the ship already comes with enough advantages not to ever NEED to pack a uni console (assuming the owner knows how to set up their Bridge Officers and Duty officers correctly, and has spent an equivalent amount of time grinding rep passives.) Gains made by a certain faction (Fed) have provided some mitigation-the Fleet Defiant's a damn good ride, the Kumari's got about the most vicious weapons cycle in the game...

but that's only a minor mitigation. The thornier problem isn't whether the Bugship (and the Starfleet equivalents) is OP, but rather, how to keep up on the 'red' side of the ledger without downing everything to buy a Bug.

because THAT is where we are NOW. Power-creep's already caught up Fedside, so for those who only do FvF, or who only RARELY do FvK, hte bug's no longer seen as "OP".

Things get pretty bad, however, when you hit FvK and it's all lockbox gear plus Fed Fleet gear on one side of the map. THAT stuff is balanced against the Bugship's basic stat design, it's verging on OP when the other side (KDF side) has ONE SHIP of the Bug's class, and the rest were balanced against...less...perfect...designs.

Vesta+Wells+Bugship+Fleet Defiant+Kumari vs. Hoh'sus, Norgh, B'rel, Tor'Khat, Bug.

Given equal players, equal teaming skills, who's going to win that? If you think it's the Red side, well...you either drive a FedBug and are in denial, or you're an optimist to quite near the point of insanity.

Why? Both teams have a Bug, right? right. But the composition of the rest of the team is heavily slanted to favour the Feds-really the ONLY point of parity, is the single Bugship on each team.

Basically gearing has raised 'baseline' on one side of the ledger ONLY. (we can swap one of the BoPs for the KDF version of the Wells, doesn't change the outcome significantly.) Trading the B'rel or the Hohsus for a Kar'fi doesn't either. Nor does it change it if you swap out the Tor'Kaht for a Kar'fi, etc. etc...

the baseline remains the same, the only real factor at that point, is the Pug factor-if it's a Fed Pug who don't know how to communicate vs. a KDF premade/Pugmade who do, THAT can shift it-but that's throwing out the baseline "Teams of equal skill" right there.

As a KDF, I'm rather thankful for the presence/existence of idiots who will spend money on an OP ship they don't know how to use and won't learn how to use-because it's rapidly getting to the point where the only kills I can consistently get, are overconfident idiots or competent people on bad teams.

and THAT is the legacy of the JHAS in this game.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 03-22-2013 at 01:47 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 706
# 35
03-22-2013, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Everything goes to hell if two JHAS show up in a game. Regardless of which side I am on, I become completely irrelevant. I can't do enough to protect any one of my teammates against two JHAS hanging on their tail, and I can't survive for more than a minute against them. It's not much better if they're on my side, since my heals and buffs then become completely irrelevant. I dread to think what would happen if I ever show up in a game where there are three JHAS.
oh but my dear friend this is coming I was in kerrat the other day and there were 5 of em on the same side its silly and it just shows how they don't care about pvp what they are gonna have to do it put in a mechanic or system that allows cruisers and sci ships to have a fighting chance against escorts of all types I never really thought it showed skill to just jmp behond a ship that cant turn and cant really hurt you and all you have to do it stay begind and pew pew till boom hell my pet squirrel can do that that's no skill and not to start a flame war but if you had no cloak and used ships that were on the klink side with no cloak how good would you relly be if you couldn't sneak up on people ?
look for me in game as "Admiral Quinn" yeah that admiral quinn..and while your at it get off muh station!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,487
# 36
03-22-2013, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
So here is why you are wrong.. you are trying to defeat a bug on it's own terms. Please think outside the box and then maybe you will be one step closer to understanding how to defeat it. A bop is versatile and can use science skills to achieve this. How about VM1, and when they are disabled, tractor, PSW3, and finally BO3 followed by torps. I have been defeated recently in my bug like this and didn't even have time to respond. Again, your problem is you are trying to match a bug on it's own terms, and yes, you will lose. Oh.. an it was a BOP that did it. So again, try to be a Kirk and think of how to defeat it. Do you think Kirk sent a message to a romulan shipyard and said "please nerf your design so I can beat your ships!!" I mean.. c'mon.. there is OP and then there are people who just don't know better.

You want everything to be equal? Well sorry, but the only thing that differentiates a bug from a defiant is the defense value when at full stop and turn rate and a shield modifier.. because remember, everyone gets a cap of 80% total defense value which means that a bug will achieve 80% slightly before a defiant. yet all escorts should achieve 80% defense value if they are at least above 25% power (including bonuses).

Bottom line.. I'll be damned if I spent all that money to get the bug just to have it nerfed, so you all better start asking for buffs to your own ships rather than asking for a nerf to mine. End of story!!
You're just wrong.

For starters there is not a defensive cap. There's a max amount for +defense from movement, but that's not the same as a defensive cap. You also don't mention the damage avoidance potential it gets from being so agile as well as the greater uptime it can get from being agile.

Reread what I wrote previously and tell me again how PSW/VM/TBs are supposed to be effective? A team of jem can have over 2 minutes of immunity to all but VM if the coordinate. Human boffs solve the VM issue (not to mention ET and batteries and eptx if needed).

Just b/c you don't know how to build/fly one, it doesn't follow it's not OP and hasn't been getting stronger overtime. It just means you are not getting the max out of yours. Seriously, you should be embarrased to say a Raider can reliably pop you like that.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 37
03-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
You're just wrong.

For starters there is not a defensive cap. There's a max amount for +defense from movement, but that's not the same as a defensive cap. You also don't mention the damage avoidance potential it gets from being so agile as well as the greater uptime it can get from being agile.

Reread what I wrote previously and tell me again how PSW/VM/TBs are supposed to be effective? A team of jem can have over 2 minutes of immunity to all but VM if the coordinate. Human boffs solve the VM issue (not to mention ET and batteries and eptx if needed).

Just b/c you don't know how to build/fly one, it doesn't follow it's not OP and hasn't been getting stronger overtime. It just means you are not getting the max out of yours. Seriously, you should be embarrased to say a Raider can reliably pop you like that.
hahah, you can challenge me 1v1 anytime.. I was killed by a very skilled PvPer...no shame in admitting that and no, you can't defend against it either unless you knew he was coming and had defenses up _as_ he decloaked since he could avoid decloaking if he knew you sensed his arrival.

Vm to disable, tractor to hold, PSW3 to disable every single one of your powers so you couldn't put up resists, BO3 while you have 0% and 0% movement which will nearly kill you, followed by torps. Yup, it works.. try it. You can't do anything because all your powers are greyed out.

I am a KDF bug.. I have no human boffs, and ET on an escort is suicide. and I can also survive multiple VMs/SBNs without having the human boff . Yes, I use 2 epts.

I do know how to build and fly one and you can test that at your earliest convenience. I have no shame in saying that a raider can make a build to take down a bug in 5 seconds because it would happen to you as well if the raider had been piloted by one of the best PvPers in the game.

As far as defense bonus from movement, yes, there is an 80% cap and no I wasn't talking about defense from resists. I'm talking ships here..... ships.....

I was talking about the differences between a defiant and a bug and having flown a defiant only for the first 2 years of this game and a bug for the last year (and no other ships), I know the differences between them. The only appreciable difference when both a defiant and a bug are moving at full speed is the shield modifier as a defiant can achieve nearly the same turn rate as a bug with RCS consoles. As far as the defense is concerned, it takes only slightly more power to a defiant's engines to achieve the same % of defense bonus as a bug, which also increases the turn rate. The only thing a defiant cannot achieve is the shield modifier unless he substitutes one of his science console slots for a field emitter array. Other than that, the base stats for the fleet defiant were increased to be on par with the bug.
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 38
03-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
I was talking about the differences between a defiant and a bug and having flown a defiant only for the first 2 years of this game and a bug for the last year (and no other ships), I know the differences between them. The only appreciable difference when both a defiant and a bug are moving at full speed is the shield modifier as a defiant can achieve nearly the same turn rate as a bug with RCS consoles. As far as the defense is concerned, it takes only slightly more power to a defiant's engines to achieve the same % of defense bonus as a bug, which also increases the turn rate. The only thing a defiant cannot achieve is the shield modifier unless he substitutes one of his science console slots for a field emitter array. Other than that, the base stats for the fleet defiant were increased to be on par with the bug.
I will point out that an RCS console takes up a console slot. That means I'm down a console slot compared to what the Bug has. Don't get me wrong, I use an RCS on my Fleet Defiant as well. Just saying, in order to match a Bug's passive stats, I need to use up console, giving the Bug an advantage because they can slot other consoles.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 39
03-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
I will point out that an RCS console takes up a console slot. That means I'm down a console slot compared to what the Bug has. Don't get me wrong, I use an RCS on my Fleet Defiant as well. Just saying, in order to match a Bug's passive stats, I need to use up console, giving the Bug an advantage because they can slot other consoles.
I also put an RCS on my bug
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,487
# 40
03-22-2013, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
hahah, you can challenge me 1v1 anytime.. I was killed by a very skilled PvPer...no shame in admitting that and no, you can't defend against it either unless you knew he was coming and had defenses up _as_ he decloaked since he could avoid decloaking if he knew you sensed his arrival.

Vm to disable, tractor to hold, PSW3 to disable every single one of your powers so you couldn't put up resists, BO3 while you have 0% and 0% movement which will nearly kill you, followed by torps. Yup, it works.. try it. You can't do anything because all your powers are greyed out.

I am a KDF bug.. I have no human boffs, and ET on an escort is suicide. and I can also survive multiple VMs/SBNs without having the human boff . Yes, I use 2 epts.

I do know how to build and fly one and you can test that at your earliest convenience. I have no shame in saying that a raider can make a build to take down a bug in 5 seconds because it would happen to you as well if the raider had been piloted by one of the best PvPers in the game.

As far as defense bonus from movement, yes, there is an 80% cap and no I wasn't talking about defense from resists. I'm talking ships here..... ships.....

I was talking about the differences between a defiant and a bug and having flown a defiant only for the first 2 years of this game and a bug for the last year (and no other ships), I know the differences between them. The only appreciable difference when both a defiant and a bug are moving at full speed is the shield modifier as a defiant can achieve nearly the same turn rate as a bug with RCS consoles. As far as the defense is concerned, it takes only slightly more power to a defiant's engines to achieve the same % of defense bonus as a bug, which also increases the turn rate. The only thing a defiant cannot achieve is the shield modifier unless he substitutes one of his science console slots for a field emitter array. Other than that, the base stats for the fleet defiant were increased to be on par with the bug.
Team powers aren't disabled by PSW, neither is manually distributing shields, nor manual adjusting power levels, nor turning. You choosing not to use ET is a personal choice. Like not spec'ing into skills to reduce the duration of VM/PSW effects is your choice. Like it's your choice to not pop an Eng battery. That combo isn't a reliable auto kill. Also, you could swap in aux2damp in a stun heavy match to fill the few moments when APO and team AP aren't up if you really wanted.

The Bug does turn better and having use RCS consoles to keep up is a cost. The universal Boffs make the Jem better as well. More engine power isn't better for turning b/c it increases speed which increases the turning arc. Being able to turn better at slower speeds is an advantage. It's part of why inertia matters. This agility allows the ship to avoid the arc of incoming damage, apply damage more often, and create distance lowering incoming damage and increasing the time of incoming damage arrives from cannons and torps.

Again, you're ignoring how the Jem was buffed w/the release of Jem consoles (in particular the pseudo AP team console). Passive resist/repair boosts help high dps ships the most, since it allows for longer time on target. The Jem is the best this.

I wasn't talking about defense from resists either. I was talking about defense which can be boosted above 80, eg Evasives, Deut, APO, cloaks, recall doffs, KHG 3 part bonus, evasive trait. AP doffs allow for more and better quality Boff layouts. This helps the best Escort out the most.

You payed for a crutch and don't want it taken away, got it.
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