Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 567
# 41
03-22-2013, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Team powers aren't disabled by PSW, neither is manually distributing shields, nor manual adjusting power levels, nor turning. You choosing not to use ET is a personal choice. Like not spec'ing into skills to reduce the duration of VM/PSW effects is your choice. Like it's your choice to not pop an Eng battery. That combo isn't a reliable auto kill. Also, you could swap in aux2damp in a stun heavy match to fill the few moments when APO and team AP aren't up if you really wanted.

The Bug does turn better and having use RCS consoles to keep up is a cost. The universal Boffs make the Jem better as well. More engine power isn't better for turning b/c it increases speed which increases the turning arc. Being able to turn better at slower speeds is an advantage. It's part of why inertia matters. This agility allows the ship to avoid the arc of incoming damage, apply damage more often, and create distance lowering incoming damage and increasing the time of incoming damage arrives from cannons and torps.

Again, you're ignoring how the Jem was buffed w/the release of Jem consoles (in particular the pseudo AP team console). Passive resist/repair boosts help high dps ships the most, since it allows for longer time on target. The Jem is the best this.

I wasn't talking about defense from resists either. I was talking about defense which can be boosted above 80, eg Evasives, Deut, APO, cloaks, recall doffs, KHG 3 part bonus, evasive trait. AP doffs allow for more and better quality Boff layouts. This helps the best Escort out the most.

You payed for a crutch and don't want it taken away, got it.
sorry.. I can keep up with a bug in my fleet defiant-- I did so just fine before I got the bug and yes, I defeated them quite often. I can do so again. I don't need a crutch because my skills go with me to the next ship and I adjust accordingly. I can keep my defiant nose on a bug just fine by slowing my speed, raising my shield power, using APA and APO or other turn increasing abilities. In fact, that's how I provided constant fire and could take them out. As far as the new consoles, I don't use 'em even though I have the ability to. As far as the defenses and all the things you mentioned like DOFFS etc...-- those aren't limited to just the bug. So if they nerf the bug (which they should not and instead buff other ships), then I'll just go back to my defiant and let you return to griping about them too.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,524
# 42
03-23-2013, 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
So here is why you are wrong.. you are trying to defeat a bug on it's own terms. Please think outside the box and then maybe you will be one step closer to understanding how to defeat it. A bop is versatile and can use science skills to achieve this. How about VM1, and when they are disabled, tractor, PSW3, and finally BO3 followed by torps. I have been defeated recently in my bug like this and didn't even have time to respond. Again, your problem is you are trying to match a bug on it's own terms, and yes, you will lose. Oh.. an it was a BOP that did it. So again, try to be a Kirk and think of how to defeat it. Do you think Kirk sent a message to a romulan shipyard and said "please nerf your design so I can beat your ships!!" I mean.. c'mon.. there is OP and then there are people who just don't know better.

You want everything to be equal? Well sorry, but the only thing that differentiates a bug from a defiant is the defense value when at full stop and turn rate and a shield modifier.. because remember, everyone gets a cap of 80% total defense value which means that a bug will achieve 80% slightly before a defiant. yet all escorts should achieve 80% defense value if they are at least above 25% power (including bonuses).

Bottom line.. I'll be damned if I spent all that money to get the bug just to have it nerfed, so you all better start asking for buffs to your own ships rather than asking for a nerf to mine. End of story!!
yer missin' my point-I'm NOT in favour of a nerf. Nerfing is BAD. I just want some technical parity, esp. with the advent of the new Jem consoles, which close the APO gap pretty sharply and, thus, render half the tactic used to take you down utterly worthless-because just like APO and HE it provides immunity to movement debuffs, and like Science team, it cures placates. There goes half. Tractor stops working. PSW3 doesn't shut that console down, either, and in the time-span you're looking at, that's a hell of a keybind to get triggered (two science abilities, decloak, Tactical abilities BO3 and THY, plus whatever attack-pattern's being used...) and remember, I'm partly referencing FVK play, which means your Bug's not getting out by himself, and I still have 12 seconds where everyone can see me-assuming, that is, everything worked as intended on the decloaking strike.

Not mentioning, of course, that what you described, with some slight variations, is pretty much HOW I get kills NOW-it's not 100%, it's roughly 40% effective, less if the bug driver's flying smart and has the ambient sounds and music turned off to listen for decloakers.

against an AWAKE opponent it works a bit less than 40% of the time-as things stand NOW, with the console being rare and (frankly) most Bugship jocks being ignorant rubes who think they can buy a win without learning how to do a build.

But none of it fixes the Raptor issue. Raptors HAVE to play on the same field as your Bug does (or the Defiant does), but they're hamstrung relative to both the Bugship, and the Defiant (and, to a surprisingly lesser extent, Kumari.)

See, the Raptors, as a class, have a series of problems relative to ships like your Bug, or the Fleet Defiant- starting with one less tactical console and middling with the broken pivot-point issue, the ending, of course, is crap shield mods to go with the bad pivot and the lower weapons power (along with fixed seating in the case of the Raptor/vs/Bugship discussion).

and of course, inertia doesn't help them much, nor low hull numbers to make up the lower shield mods combined with the pivot issues.

or haven't you noticed that you can tell the new-guy in a PvP match, because he's driving a Raptor instead of a BoP. Most Raptor-drivers stick to PvE or Premades, because in a Pug environment (which one might consider "iron man" play-you have to work with what you got, instead of what you want...) a Raptor's got the defects of an Escort AND the Defects of a Battlecruiser, and precious few of the virtues of either.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 292
# 43
03-23-2013, 01:18 AM
Bugs should stay as they are and no nerfing for them, because even if it seems strange it is the single ship that can make FvK balanced.Without jhas Federation would have a bigger advantage toward Kdf as it has now.

Kdf BOP's are made for hit and run and I like to stay in place and fight until one of the ships get destroyed that is why i continue to fly my raptor.I am saving for a bug because it is the single comparable escort available for kdf in this moment that can fight against the federation ships in game.On the other hand flying a dominion ship doesn't seems so right for me,I would love instead to be able to buy a raptor having same specs as bug.(or very close at least)
Audiater et altera pars
"They gave away your leech, the only 5 tac console ship you have has a turn rate of 5, all of the Romulan ships have battle cloak and dont suffer the hull strength reduction of the BOPs."
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 74
# 44
03-25-2013, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
People find it "hard to understand" because...well...everyone gets shot down once in a while, and from that perspective it doesn't LOOK like you're OP in a bug.

of course, from OUTSIDE the Bugship, well, it's a different story, but the general attitude I've seen in these kind of threads is that whole "You're just Jealous" attitude from the Bug-owners (those NOT freaking out at the thought of all the money/time spent being invalidated by some mythical 'nerfing' of the design, that is...)

People tend to LIKE their privelages -you see a similar reaction to the idea of a Fed Battlecloak, or the threat of the Plas leech console going into a lockbox.


The cosmetic "balancing" factor on the bugship, is the limited number of places to slot the universal consoles-it's a cosmetic, because the ship already comes with enough advantages not to ever NEED to pack a uni console (assuming the owner knows how to set up their Bridge Officers and Duty officers correctly, and has spent an equivalent amount of time grinding rep passives.) Gains made by a certain faction (Fed) have provided some mitigation-the Fleet Defiant's a damn good ride, the Kumari's got about the most vicious weapons cycle in the game...

but that's only a minor mitigation. The thornier problem isn't whether the Bugship (and the Starfleet equivalents) is OP, but rather, how to keep up on the 'red' side of the ledger without downing everything to buy a Bug.

because THAT is where we are NOW. Power-creep's already caught up Fedside, so for those who only do FvF, or who only RARELY do FvK, hte bug's no longer seen as "OP".

Things get pretty bad, however, when you hit FvK and it's all lockbox gear plus Fed Fleet gear on one side of the map. THAT stuff is balanced against the Bugship's basic stat design, it's verging on OP when the other side (KDF side) has ONE SHIP of the Bug's class, and the rest were balanced against...less...perfect...designs.

Vesta+Wells+Bugship+Fleet Defiant+Kumari vs. Hoh'sus, Norgh, B'rel, Tor'Khat, Bug.

Given equal players, equal teaming skills, who's going to win that? If you think it's the Red side, well...you either drive a FedBug and are in denial, or you're an optimist to quite near the point of insanity.

Why? Both teams have a Bug, right? right. But the composition of the rest of the team is heavily slanted to favour the Feds-really the ONLY point of parity, is the single Bugship on each team.

Basically gearing has raised 'baseline' on one side of the ledger ONLY. (we can swap one of the BoPs for the KDF version of the Wells, doesn't change the outcome significantly.) Trading the B'rel or the Hohsus for a Kar'fi doesn't either. Nor does it change it if you swap out the Tor'Kaht for a Kar'fi, etc. etc...

the baseline remains the same, the only real factor at that point, is the Pug factor-if it's a Fed Pug who don't know how to communicate vs. a KDF premade/Pugmade who do, THAT can shift it-but that's throwing out the baseline "Teams of equal skill" right there.

As a KDF, I'm rather thankful for the presence/existence of idiots who will spend money on an OP ship they don't know how to use and won't learn how to use-because it's rapidly getting to the point where the only kills I can consistently get, are overconfident idiots or competent people on bad teams.

and THAT is the legacy of the JHAS in this game.
LOL sorry buddy..we understand how you spent your money on the bug but its obvious its OP. They need to nerf it. How much you spent has nothing to do with balance. No offense.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 45
03-25-2013, 07:59 AM
well you have to understand that a ship so expensive have to be a little bit better than the other ships in the same class, but the bug has its flaws, it might have a little but more hull, shield and turn rate than the defiant, but it still only haves 1 science console, i think the op part in that ship is the boff layout, not the stats, ive seen chel gretts and fleet patrols killing the bug pretty easely, i dont find it an issue
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 278
# 46
03-25-2013, 08:14 AM
My issue with it is the lowering of diversity. Every ship should be unique and different AND BALANCED. Players would be left to decide on ships based on their own merits, rather than because escorts are the best, and the JHAS is the best escort.

If the ships were entirely balanced, lock boxes wouldn't even be required and they could be sold normally, as there'd be no special reason to pick them over anything else other than personal preference. (Of course, you wouldn't make as much money that way).
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 289
# 47
03-25-2013, 08:48 AM
There are lots of players that spent hundreds of dollers if not more to get a bug ship. I was lucky and found someone that had 2 and wanter to trade for a Wells. But if Cryptic Nerfed it beacuse the players that dont have it think its to OP the backlash would be the biggest the community has ever seen. They would have so many demanding refunds or quitting the game if they ever changed it so it will never happen. So all the endless threads about Nerf the JHAS are in vain. The only solution is for cryptic is to Nerf all escourts or DHC's. Beacuse of all the millions cryptic has made off of this one ship they will never change a thing about it. So all the complianing on the forums is not going to accomplish anything.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 802
# 48
03-25-2013, 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admgreer View Post
So all the complianing on the forums is not going to accomplish anything.
Actually, it will do one thing, it will drive up demand more. Since people want the op ship.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 49
03-25-2013, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
Bugs should stay as they are and no nerfing for them, because even if it seems strange it is the single ship that can make FvK balanced.Without jhas Federation would have a bigger advantage toward Kdf as it has now.

Kdf BOP's are made for hit and run and I like to stay in place and fight until one of the ships get destroyed that is why i continue to fly my raptor.I am saving for a bug because it is the single comparable escort available for kdf in this moment that can fight against the federation ships in game.On the other hand flying a dominion ship doesn't seems so right for me,I would love instead to be able to buy a raptor having same specs as bug.(or very close at least)
Your logic is flawed.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 50
03-25-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admgreer View Post
There are lots of players that spent hundreds of dollers if not more to get a bug ship. I was lucky and found someone that had 2 and wanter to trade for a Wells. But if Cryptic Nerfed it beacuse the players that dont have it think its to OP the backlash would be the biggest the community has ever seen. They would have so many demanding refunds or quitting the game if they ever changed it so it will never happen. So all the endless threads about Nerf the JHAS are in vain. The only solution is for cryptic is to Nerf all escourts or DHC's. Beacuse of all the millions cryptic has made off of this one ship they will never change a thing about it. So all the complianing on the forums is not going to accomplish anything.
Exactly how many people have Jem Hadar ships?

How many are they, compared to the overall population?

All things considered, I find it more likely that they're going to run into a ****storm if they keep on like this. And when they do, I will be long gone.
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