Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 21
03-22-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
but not only "true" star trek fans will dispute your statement, anybody with atleast an above average sense for good movies will disagree with you.
I'd put them about on par. Kirk vs. Picard is personal preference. The death of Data is equally hard hitting as the death of Spock; the actions of both were heroic in their own right, and as much as Data's reincarnation seemed to be inevitable, it's not like Spock wasn't reincarnated as well.

For a villain with no former presence, Shinzon was fairly impressive; while Montalban created a more iconic character, I always felt Shinzon and his Scimitar posed a greater threat to the Enterprise, Earth and the Federation.

Now, if the Wrath space scenes were remade today, it might push it over the top. That said, I really wish someone had used '60s tech for the Reman makeup effects; those dudes were unnecessarily fugly, and as a race seemed unimpressive (mind-raping Troi seems so PC, but without it she served no purpose in the film other than as arm candy for Riker).

As I said, it could go either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
That single sentence is so close to total heresy, I could hardly bear to quote it, and thus invalidates your entire premise.
Even I have to agree with this, and I put the films roughly on par.

Khan is a memorable character, made moreso by his previous appearance in the series.

But Shinzon got all the cool toys. It helps to play nice with others, which is apparently something they failed to teach the genetically superior Khan.

Plus, he out-Romulan'd the Romulans. How cool is that. No wonder we're getting a craptastic Romulan republic - some punk human clone took their manhood.

Last edited by millimidget; 03-22-2013 at 05:03 PM.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 298
# 22 No Contest
03-22-2013, 05:13 PM
WoK was the best ST movie ever.....and i mean ever, the best music and the classic crew, the ship OMG the Grey Lady (1701 refit) is far sexier than the ENT E. Plus you get to see Kristey Alley as a vulcan and btw thats the best she has ever looked as Saavik. Kahn was one of those people were you could like and hate at the same time, that is what true villain should be. Granted Spock died but he came back and thrived afterwords. Plus it had a nice message at the end Spock was trying to tell Kirk and sort of bittersweet and heart warming. Scotty on the bagpipes was a real tear jerker. Left you feeling good at the end of show and yet sad that a mutual friend to the audience and the crew left since many watchers grew up with the guy in the TOS show. 10 out of 10

As for Nemesis, it gave more insight into the Romulan culture and revealed that the Empire is not really an Empire but a Republic (Cryptic was right) because the Senate does all the policy making like the USA and theres civilian control of the miilitary and also the whole Remans were the downtroded slaves was wrong they turned out to be the agressors in this matter. The story was okay but the B4 angle was well off to me, why did they use him in the first place they could have just called Starfleet and had Picard over regardless of the Android. Schinzon was really cool, i always wanted to see Picard being the BA he was in Yesterday's Enteprise and First Contact. Instead of the soft explorer who gets manipulated into entanglements, Kirk i believe would have sensed a trap and not fallen for Schinzon's plea for help. The action sequences reminded me of Star Wars from the Schimatar corridor battle at the shuttle bay door, if you look at Star Wars V you will find a exact scene on Cloud City where Artoo and C3PO are arguing when Chewy is shooting Storms and artoo is opening the door. Much like Data and Picard did. The hallway battle on the Enterprise was also a copy of the detention block battle on the Deathstar and the Remans acted way too much like stormtroopers and never did hit anything at all. The music reminded me of the old Nazi WW2 music in the Longest Day war movie, not very original. In all i give it a 7 out of 10.

Wraith of Kahn was far superior and way more Trek.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 263
# 23
03-22-2013, 05:20 PM
The Scimitar had fighters it never used.
The ship could cloak but needed shipping info for fed space.
B4 was never told to get medical info on Picard's DNA to clone some tissue while on the Enterprise.
A radiation that destroys organic matter on a sub-atomic scale (all matter is the same on that scale).
Shinzon tried to make out with Diana via his viceroy.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,918
# 24
03-22-2013, 05:23 PM
The only thing that was better in Nemesis than Wrath of Khan were the the special effects, beyond that the movie itself was so full of plot holes and ridiculous action sequences it was more of a comedy than a science fiction drama.
Shinzon is a clone of a younger Picard? If they had spent just a bit of time in makeup making Tom Hardy at least vaguely resemble Patrick Stewart, the premise would have been less laughable. How the hell does someone become less bald and look so completely different as they get older? You can explain part of that away to environment but when they show Picard reminiscing over an old photo where he looks like Shinzon I was shaking my head, thinking come on guys you could have done better than that.
Shinzon starts off supposedly trying to gain Picard's trust yet immediately does something outlandish like telepathically raping Troi? Geez no subtlety of evilness in that and for what purpose? He undermined his own goals by showing his hand too early. Bad guys that are subtly evil are much more interesting than the ones that do the Simon Legree routine.

The stupid dune buggy sequence straight out of a post apocalyptic B movie , flying a fighter around in ships corridors and a 65 year old man trying to act like an action hero is just too absurd to think about.

And why the hell is it that no matter where something happens in the galaxy, no matter who is responsible, the bad guys always want to attack Earth in revenge?

With WoK you have an existing character who was already an ego maniac to begin with, but now one driven mad by grief and a need for revenge, you had a continuity with a pre-existing story.
There was no such build up for Nemesis. The whole movie came across as what it was, a last gasping breath of a cast that were ready to move on after attempting to milk a few more drops from a franchise showing its age.

I always laugh at the Reman character design, they couldn't make them look more demonic looking if they tried, I keep thinking is this Star Trek or Nosferatu, I would really hate to see what Reman women look like.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 258
# 25
03-22-2013, 06:12 PM
As TV shows, I really prefer TNG over the original series. I think the crew is more interesting and diverse, and Picard, Q, and the Borg are far better and more interesting as characters in a serial adventure. They're just more complex than the original crew ever was on the original show.

However for some reason it flips when it comes to the movies. TOS crew has real movie star charisma and the plots are better movie plots, IMO. Even the fairly cheesy "Voyage Home" was still very entertaining. The only bad one IMO is "The Undiscovered Country." The Wrath of Khan is just the best Star Trek movie ever made, IMO.

None of the TNG movies really resonated with me. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner have real big screen acting chops, but every one else just feels flat, and the plots are just kind of lame.

Last edited by voxinvictus; 03-22-2013 at 06:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 531
# 26
03-22-2013, 06:18 PM
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,346
# 27
03-22-2013, 06:22 PM
Basically, WoK was a great film and Nemesis was the film where they just plain forgot everything and were dumber than Pakleds...

/thread

Fed: Eng (Five) Sci (Maelrock) Tac (Shen) Rom/KDF: Sci (Mervek)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitsune424 View Post
Here is your ticket to the USS Stupidity, Third class, four tacks on the chair, rules state you MUST sit on the chair, no standing, or hovering above the tacks, thank you have a nice day
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 447
# 28
03-22-2013, 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxinvictus View Post
As TV shows, I really prefer TNG over the original series. I think the crew is more interesting and diverse, and Picard, Q, and the Borg are far better and more interesting as characters in a serial adventure. They're just more complex than the original crew ever was on the original show.

However for some reason it flips when it comes to the movies. TOS crew has real movie star charisma and the plots are better movie plots, IMO. Even the fairly cheesy "Voyage Home" was still very entertaining. The only bad one IMO is "The Undiscovered Country." The Wrath of Khan is just the best Star Trek movie ever made, IMO.

None of the TNG movies really resonated with me. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner have real big screen acting chops, but every one else just feels flat, and the plots are just kind of lame.
Having more, deeper characters was exactly why TNG translated more poorly on to the silver screen. You can realistically only feature 2-4 main characters in any given story. TOS, every story was basically a Kirk/Spock/McCoy story with cameos from the other recurrings. TNG, you had Picard/Crusher, Geordi/Data, Ruler/Troi, Ruler/Worf/Troi episodes, and every other 2 or 3 person combo, but the movies could only really fit in 3, usually only two "real" characters , primarily Data/Picard. The rest only really got cameos that illustrated one or two clich?d traits and left you wanting more.

Nemesis wasn't just poor trek ( up there with "Spock's Brain" on my trek **** list), it was a terribad movie, with terribad plot, terribad action sequences, a terribad clich?d ending, and a terribad soundtrack. At least Insurrection had F. Murray Abraham.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 531
# 29
03-22-2013, 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
TNG, you had Picard/Crusher, Geordi/Data, Ruler/Troi, Ruler/Worf/Troi episodes,
Ruler? Who's "Ruler"... I think you mean "Riker"?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 30
03-22-2013, 07:11 PM
I know this has been posted before but this sums up the collective disgust and an air-tight arguement against your statement about Nemesis.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/s...-trek-nemesis/

But I agree with the OP, clearly a troll.
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