Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,365
# 11
03-27-2013, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybacon90 View Post
But the fact you built this around DHCs rules out two thirds of the federation ship tree, and focuses primarily on escorts. Even if you didn't mention it, it was quite implied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
First off unless you have a crazy powerful ship build already that doesn't involve DHCs scrap it for a ship that can use 'em. If you do why on earth are you reading this in the first place eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by empireofsteve View Post
I'm at a point with my cruiser that I can put out a good amount of damage with my cruiser that can make up for where others fail. I have beaten all STFs, lately CSE, with all cruisers or carriers and no elite scorpion fighters with time to spare. It just takes people who know what they are doing.

also, with your comments about dhcs you are saying without saying it that escorts are required as fed side only escorts can really use dhcs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
First off unless you have a crazy powerful ship build already that doesn't involve DHCs scrap it for a ship that can use 'em. If you do why on earth are you reading this in the first place eh?
Additionally empireofsteve carrying means that your team doesn't have to know what they are doing, it is pretty much the entire point of carrying.

Look, their are cruisers that can carry such as one sporting 5-6 plasma beams, rommie beam, cutting beam, and possibly a torp. Or a Sci vessel rocking the rommie torp with another torp or two and doffs to make that thing fire every other second and tons of +plasma sci consoles to boost the DoT to the sky as off the top of my head examples. But this thread was not created to discuss or debate the viability of any ship, or to create a 'tier' list of effective ships.

This thread was created to express my opinion that if you are incapable of carrying an eSTF you are no better than any other player in the PuG. And to offer some simple very basic advice on how you can easily go about becoming capable of carrying without dragging the optimum ship vs effective ship debate into it. The bottom line is if your ship can carry then you do not need to justify it's load out to anyone. If it can't then you may want to try something a bit easier to carry with.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 12
03-27-2013, 01:36 PM
"This thread was created to express my opinion that if you are incapable of carrying an eSTF you are no better than any other player in the PuG. "

So if, in my cruiser, I manage to not die, to keep plugging away at the damage, heal anybody I can get to who needs it.......I'm no better than the pug who doesn't understand the ESTF or one who parks 100km away to take the rewards without the work?

I may not be able to carry an ESTF, but I do my part.

While I see your point that maximising ones effectiveness is part of becoming proficient in ESTF, I'm afraid I can't accept your premise that if you can't solo one, you're no good.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 13
03-27-2013, 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkster View Post
So if, in my cruiser, I manage to not die, to keep plugging away at the damage, heal anybody I can get to who needs it.......I'm no better than the pug who doesn't understand the ESTF or one who parks 100km away to take the rewards without the work?

I may not be able to carry an ESTF, but I do my part.

While I see your point that maximising ones effectiveness is part of becoming proficient in ESTF, I'm afraid I can't accept your premise that if you can't solo one, you're no good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
This thread was created to express my opinion that if you are incapable of carrying an eSTF you are no better than any other player in the PuG.
Never said no good. Said you are no better than any other player on your team.

Look even in professional sports, say US football, do they give the best player on the loosing team a ring? No, because the best looser still lost.

If you fail the mission/optional then the team failed it. Everyone on the team is at fault including the best player on the team. Now you can rage away on your team mates and blame them for the entire fail if you want or you could do what I do. Ask yourself what you did wrong and how you could have changed the outcome. Your not the coach your a player, a member of that team.

When I fail the optional of an STF on an alt I ask myself how could I have made it a success? Would CSV have been more effective than CRF? Should I drop the torp or pick one up? Should I have brought a tractor beam? Would a Romulan Boff had given me just enough DPS to have won it?

I even do this when someone trolls in say ISE and goes to the other side below the cube and blows gens while the entire team is on the other side. And guess what, over half the time I still get the optional. Sadly I don't always pay enough attention but that is my fault.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,221
# 14
03-27-2013, 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Never said no good. Said you are no better than any other player on your team.

Look even in professional sports, say US football, do they give the best player on the loosing team a ring? No, because the best looser still lost.

If you fail the mission/optional then the team failed it. Everyone on the team is at fault including the best player on the team. Now you can rage away on your team mates and blame them for the entire fail if you want or you could do what I do. Ask yourself what you did wrong and how you could have changed the outcome. Your not the coach your a player, a member of that team.

When I fail the optional of an STF on an alt I ask myself how could I have made it a success? Would CSV have been more effective than CRF? Should I drop the torp or pick one up? Should I have brought a tractor beam? Would a Romulan Boff had given me just enough DPS to have won it?

I even do this when someone trolls in say ISE and goes to the other side below the cube and blows gens while the entire team is on the other side. And guess what, over half the time I still get the optional. Sadly I don't always pay enough attention but that is my fault.
Ya, THIS ^^^^

Keep your eyes open, adapt to the unfolding battle, be willing to do the 'odd jobs' that get overlooked or forgotten about, HEAL your teammates.

Don't just follow the script, ADAPT AND SURVIVE !!!
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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# 15
03-27-2013, 02:44 PM
"Ask yourself what you did wrong and how you could have changed the outcome. Your not the coach your a player, a member of that team.

When I fail the optional of an STF on an alt I ask myself how could I have made it a success?"

Ahh, I think I see the issue.

In my view, you're missing an important point.

One the one hand, ESTF are team missions. Yet, in the latter half of the part I've quoted, you express the problem in terms of 'I'.

Think of the team running an ESTF as an orchestra. A variety of instruents, with different tonal ranges, playing their part to make a succesful and harmonious whole.

If one or more instrument doesn't understand their part in the whole then it all falls apart.

To follow your logic, in such cases, the trombone player should be asking themselves how to not only improve their own part, but also how to turn the trombone into a cello, a kettle drum and a piccolo at the same time.

i have no problem with the idea that, as individual part of the ESTF team, we should challenge ourselves to do our part better. However, thats not what you're suggesting. You're suggesting that, unless we're capable of soloing the whole thing, then we're no better than anyone else.

That it doesn't matter how good the trombone player is, if they can't also be a kettle drum.

That seems somewhat silly.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 16
03-27-2013, 02:56 PM
If one of the instruments in my symphony is suddenly stricken for what ever reason, be it incompetence or elsewise, it is most certainly my responsibility to fill that spot if it is in my ability.

Should I just let the performance fall apart, or as they say, the show must go on?

If I haven't done everything I can do to save the situation, I am no less to blame then the fool who made the mistake.

I have the skills and the tools to save most situations. If I do not do so I have failed.

I don't care what the other guy does. I'm responsible for my own actions. That does not mean I am not working as a team. In a perfect world I would not have to jump to such action and I complete my expected roll as precisely as I can.

The magic happens when more then one person who can function at the high end get together and are able to adapt like this with each other... Now *THAT* is teamwork...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
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# 17
03-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
If one of the instruments in my symphony is suddenly stricken for what ever reason, be it incompetence or elsewise, it is most certainly my responsibility to fill that spot if it is in my ability.

Should I just let the performance fall apart, or as they say, the show must go on?

If I haven't done everything I can do to save the situation, I am no less to blame then the fool who made the mistake.

I have the skills and the tools to save most situations. If I do not do so I have failed.

I don't care what the other guy does. I'm responsible for my own actions. That does not mean I am not working as a team. In a perfect world I would not have to jump to such action and I complete my expected roll as precisely as I can.

The magic happens when more then one person who can function at the high end get together and are able to adapt like this with each other... Now *THAT* is teamwork...
I don't disagree with any of that.

However, its not the point the OP was making.

I, when I run my cruiser through an ESTF, keep an eye on my team mates. Throw heals out as i can, keep an eye on the overall situation, move and adapt as I can.

In other words, I try to do my part.

I also look at my build on a frequent basis, read the fora here, see if there's more I can do to keep playing my part and to do so better.

However, I also accept that me and my cruiser can't by themselves win an ESTF.

It's a team endeavour and, as you rightly say, its when a groups skills, abilities and inclinations come together that things go well.

The OP though did not define doing ones part in an ESTf as playing ones role well and adapting as necessary and possible.

They defined it as being able to solo an ESTF. It's that precise point I'm disagreeing with.

My cruiser can't solo an ESTF, but I should not consider myself no better than the pug who doesn't understand the mission or the AFKer who's parked off 100km away.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,365
# 18
03-27-2013, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkster View Post

Think of the team running an ESTF as an orchestra. A variety of instruents, with different tonal ranges, playing their part to make a succesful and harmonious whole.
This. Is. Not. WoW.

Their is no role, no trinity, no requirement beyond what the mission asks. Find a way to make it happen and if the team fails then yes you failed.

Back to football, if your recievers can't catch you can run the ball. If you line cannot hold up the rush you throw a screen. If you offense can't score your defense can. Any one player can change the outcome of the match.

eSTFs are the same way. Yes a single player can change the outcome and therefore you should always ask yourself how you can be the player that does so.
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# 19
03-27-2013, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
This. Is. Not. WoW.



eSTFs are the same way. Yes a single player can change the outcome and therefore you should always ask yourself how you can be the player that does so.
A single player, in a team, can make the difference.

But put a football team up against a single player who thinks they can do it all and see how that turns out.

If, in my cruiser, I decide to go all out DPS (and thats a possible choice) it means I'm not carrying as many heals as I could.

The reverse is also true, carry too many heals and you're not going to be able to contribute to the damage inflicted as much as you should.

No one ship beats everything. No one ship is capable of doing everything.

While the R/P/S dynamic is, perhaps, not what it could be, in STO it still exists to an extent.

Oh, and I never thought of STO as WoW. horrible game.

I think of it more as Battlefield 3. Go in with all medics and you may get lucky, but that tank is going to pwn you.

Go in all engineers and the tank may go away but you have no smoke.

Don't take a recon and you're not going to be able to set up a sneaky spawn point or use a TUGS to spot the enemy.

Don't take any support and you'll be out of ammo soon enough.

In STO, no escorts mean you're probably not going to have the DPS you want. No cruisers mean a likely shortage of heals. No sci vessels, and gravity well 3 is unlikely to be able to bunch up those spheres.

Doesn't mean you can't win, doesn't mean you wont get the optional.

But a balanced team will, on the whole, do better than an imbalanced one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 190
# 20
03-27-2013, 03:19 PM
Stop exaggerating what he says. He doesn't mean solo'ing an STF like Vexashen did (Hi Vex, kill you in fleet PvP Thursday! ). He means CARRYING a pug. That means YOU guard the Kang. YOU watch for nanite spheres on the side closest to the gate. YOU stop at least one side of probes in KASE. TELL the rest of the team what you're doing. And bring enough DPS to the match to matter.

Bareel, I agree with you 100%. 90% of my PUG STFs complete, with most of them taking the optional as well. Most times it is me guarding the optional with a well-placed tractor beam repulsor or grav well.

Typically these are teams where my eng/c-store excelsior is out-dpsing everyone else, sometimes by a factor of 2, including tacs. Where someone who is actually trying to help does <1k dps. No, I can't solo infected, but I can easily see how replacing me with another <3k dps typical PUG would make it turn a success into a catastrophic failure. It just makes me wonder sometimes what the typical outcome of STFs are if most of the other people in the PUG queues can't break 3k. I guess it does explain much of the STF PUG rage - You're most likely going to be placed in a group without someone who can carry it, and if you can't carry it yourself, it's going to be a crappy experience.

And back to bareel's point, with my tac/escort carrying a team is much much easier, although I disagree about the Omega torp - HYT3 on a tac, that thing is a monster, with 100k+ crits.

I always offer to check out people's builds, offering unsolicited suggestions only when I see a clear need for it, (usually < 1.5k dps) or if someone asks me. And I always complement good behavior in the team chat channel, such as someone dropping a gravwell or healing, to encourage the others to do it as well.

Lastly, a lot of the times I PUG in the morning or at lunch because for me is more fun than with fleetmates, because with fleetmates it's just a grind - git er done, ISE < 5 min, rinse/lather/repeat, etc. But with a pug, you have to think, adapt, pay attention because that captain over there probably won't, etc. And so it matters when you actually succeed.
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