Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 1 Help me win a bet!
03-28-2013, 06:20 AM
Ok, so here is the issue. I am a Fed Eng with a cruiser (Excelsior). My friend runs as a tac in a fleet patrol escort.

He goes on and on about how awesome that ship is, and honestly, I have developed this irrational hatred for it. We run duels a few times, but mainly to test numbers or builds and what not. The thing is, I've never been able to blow him up, and he throws it in my face constantly.

I really want to wipe that smug grin off his face.

He has bet me that as an Eng in a cruiser, I will never be able to beat him 1v1.

I have tried several different builds, and honestly, I am sick of wasting money trying things out, so I am turning you you fine folks. Is there a way to blow that damn ship ship up?

He is running:

Weapons:

x4 Adv Fleet Antiproton DHC, x2 Adv Fleet Antiproton Turrets, Cutting Beam

Cmdr Tac - TT1, CRF1, APO1, CRF3
LCom Tac - TT1, APB1, APO1
Lt Eng - EPtS 1, RSP
En Eng - EPtS1
Lt Sci - HE1, TSS2

All human Boffs

Consoles:

Eng - x2 Neut Mk XI blue, Borg, RCS,
Sci - x2 Field Gens
Tac - x4 Antirproton

Not sure about his doff layout.

Deflector - Borg
Engine - Borg
Shield - MACO

He actually can't really hurt me as I am running EPtS3 with 125 Shield, RSF, TSS2, and have 3 purple Damage control engineers and conn officers for tac team. I just can't seem to do enough damage to do anything significant to his hull. I have tried beams, 6 and 8, torp boat, cannon boat, turret boat, all with fleet weapons. I've tried EWP, AB, and DEM. I have used Antiproton, phaser, and disruptor (not together of course). Photons, Quantums, Transpahsics or Trics. I can't get his shields down very long between him using EPtS, and as soon as I am not hitting his hull, his native hull regen will get him back up from 70-80s to 100% in seconds.

So tell me, is there any way to wipe the smug grin off his face while being an engy in an cruiser? I am getting tired of it. He has actually begun to taunt me by sitting absolutely still, .5k off my bow just to rub it in that no matter what I use, he doesn't need to do anything but spam spacebar (Redistibute shields, EPts1, TSS2) and stay alive. He doesn't even fire back anymore, and I am getting annoyed.

I am 3 days away from finishing The Fleet version. Is the 4th tac console going to be enough? I have actually gotten so discouraged with cruisers, I am not even sure I want to waste the 5 mil EC to even get the dang thing.

I am T5 in all rep, and I have finished a few Rep sets, but I don't have Omega for Tetryon glider yet, but I am not sure how much difference it will make.

So there it is. Can anyone help me win this bet, without spending millions upon millions for the SNB doff? I just need a 1v1 build for this bet.

Any help here, or is this a futile endeavor?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,813
# 2
03-28-2013, 06:34 AM
Well 1) if he can't spike an engi cruiser... he is the one with the massive fail build... 4 dhc was 1 year ago. Tell him that. lol

What you need is Spike... that he can't heal.

Forget about going all beams or all cannons... you will never ever spike an escort down with just energy unless he is really dumb enough to sit in front of you and not move off to heal.

You probaly are going to want to run an aux to bat build.

You will need 3 tech doffs to make that work... purple ones are really idea... but for the purpose of a simple 1v1 dual you might be able to get away with 3 blues.

I would run....

2 Tetryon (or better phased tetryon) cannons... with 2 Torps in front. Transphasic (you can use the rapid fire phasics from the mission for a bit faster fire rate)

In the rear I would put 2 turrets a cutting beam and a breen cluster torp. ( use torp consoles... so what ever turrets you have will do you don't have to spend any more ec... who cares rainbow it up)

For consoles... go with all torp consoles. (this is going to be about spiking him) the tet weapons are just there to keep some preasure on him... and if your lucky you might proc the shield strip a few times in a row and get him in trouble if you time your buffs well.

Skills I would use...

DEM 3 ( with tech doffs this will be up almost all the time)

Consider dropping your EPTS 3 to EPTS 2... and get a Warp Plasma to go with.

Run Aux to Bat 1... so you can proc your doffs.

Run Spread 3 and rapid 1.

For doffs... 3 tech doffs like I mentioned... and 2 Torp Doffs.... you won't need the dmg control the Tech doffs will do the same thing for you.

If you use that I am sure you could take him out.... or at least force him to run... and every time he runs laugh at him. If he gets behind you and sits on your tail... launch the breen cluster in his face... with the phasic consoles in it has a good chance even from an engi to one shot him.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 03-28-2013 at 06:36 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,813
# 3
03-28-2013, 06:45 AM
One other thing to consider...

I'm not sure what you got for sci skills going on...

However if your full rep... and if you have a embassy shield console or two.

You can likely afford to not run a Transfer Shield Strength if you are.

So something like

hazards 1 + Tractor beam repulsors 1 could be a nice boost to the direct to hull theme.

Use your TBR right after you aux to bat and it won't push at all....

Also you mentioned he was using 2 copies of omega... omega will make him immune to the push but he'll still take all the dmg from it.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116
# 4
03-28-2013, 07:42 AM
you will always be able to kill him /eng vs tac .... this noob here antoniio give you few good advices and lot of **** with that
OLD > JHAS - Battle Bug [Fed]
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,195
# 5
03-28-2013, 07:48 AM
DISCLAIMER: Don't use this build. Don't use anything from this build. Unless somebody else suggests that you do use something from it (either directly, which is unlikely - or - they post it in another build). I just like posting somewhat out of the box/flaky builds when somebody talks about builds. It's a creative process. Often though, there are things that I would do with said build that simply are not communicated by the build when seen in a forum post - so even if it were something I were to fly, I couldn't explain why I flew it or how it worked - I know how, I just wouldn't be very good at explaining it.

Fleet Excelsior w/ Eng Captain

Traits - Accurate, Elusive, Techie, Warp Theorist

Passives
New Rom - Precision, Emergency Secondary Shielding, (QSM)
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier

TT1, BO2, APO1
EPtS1, BP1, AtS2, EWP3
EPtW1, RSP1
ET1

TSS1, TBR1

1x Rom Tac BOFF, 4x Human BOFFs

DOFFs - SDO(BFI), 3x DCE(EPt), MAS(EWP)

Deflector - MACO Mk XII
Engine - Aegis
Shield - MACO Mk XII

Weapons
Fore - Experimental Beam Array, 2x Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2[CrtH], Breen Cluster
Aft - Cutting Beam, Hyper-Plasma Torp, Plasma Mines Mk XII [CrtD][CrtH]x2, Breen Cluster

Consoles
Tac - 3x Plasma Infuser Mk XI, Trans Compressor Mk XI
Eng - Borg, 0Point, Tachyo, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 2x Rom PrtG [Pla]

Devices - Aux Batt, Shield Batt, Scorpions, Trans Torp Platform

See? Nothing you want here.

The premise, mind you - is telling him after he goes outside of 10km that he forfeited. If a boxer steps out of the ring...lalalalala. He can always try to schedule a rematch if he likes.

DISCLAIMER: Don't use this build. Don't use anything from this build. Unless somebody else suggests that you do use something from it (either directly, which is unlikely - or - they post it in another build). I just like posting somewhat out of the box/flaky builds when somebody talks about builds. It's a creative process. Often though, there are things that I would do with said build that simply are not communicated by the build when seen in a forum post - so even if it were something I were to fly, I couldn't explain why I flew it or how it worked - I know how, I just wouldn't be very good at explaining it.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 6
03-28-2013, 07:49 AM
Thanks for the advice mate!

Perhaps 4DHC is last year, but we have only been playing for 5 months or so, so we are little behind the curve, hehe. I would have to ask you for his sake how does one spike through nearly max SDR solo?

And he doesn't just sit there normally. He usually just sits at 1/4 impulse and rotates around as I try desperately to turn. I do manage to play some evasive tactics him, but he knows at this point without a doubt that he doesn't need to run away or get off my butt because nothing I can dish out is threatening enough to force him to retreat.


This was actually kind of close to what I most recently tried, though not with entirely a batt build. I tried (just for kicks) an all out transphasic build. 3 rapid reloads and a cluster in the front, 1 rapid reload, a cluster, and 2 trans mine launchers in the back. 2 breen set pieces (for the set bonus) and 4 trans tac consoles. I switched out some boffs to run EPtS2 like you said, with EWP and DEM3. EWP ticked for 300ish dmg per tick (granted no points in particle or grav, whichever it is) and DEM3 made me go from roughly 30-40 hull bleedthrough dmg per shot, to maybe 70-90. Still well within the capacity for his hull to regen, something like 158%/sec.

What I found most interesting is while the rapids would hit for roughly 300-400 hull dmg (with 9 points in torp damage, 6 in torp crit), the cluster would spike him down to roughly 80%, 70% for a crit. However given the piddly damage between everything else, his hull would regen up to 100% in about 6 seconds, completely nullifying any damage done. However, for testing purposes, he removed one of his resist consoles (Neut). I actually got him down to low 20's% before he ran away. Now, I would like to consider this winning the bet, but since it is not what he normally uses, I cannot.

I have poured over every PvP cruiser build in here that I can find (this torp boat was way down on the list of things I thought would be effective), and I have looked very closely at the batt build. The main reason for this build, I think anyway, is to be able to chain powers that you don't have room for 2 of. My doffs seem to take care of that for the most part, at least on tac and engy skills (for this build I had TS2 and TS3). I am not discounting the build, or bashing your advice or anything. I am just saying maybe I am missing something in the layout.

Our fighting back and forth didn't seem to be an issue before leadership was fixed. We actually had some pretty good fights back and forth.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 265
# 7
03-28-2013, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
Thanks for the advice mate!

And he doesn't just sit there normally. He usually just sits at 1/4 impulse and rotates around as I try desperately to turn. I do manage to play some evasive tactics him, but he knows at this point without a doubt that he doesn't need to run away or get off my butt because nothing I can dish out is threatening enough to force him to retreat.
Use a tractor beam and subspace jump/Grav Well. It works wonders.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 895
# 8
03-28-2013, 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
So tell me, is there any way to wipe the smug grin off his face while being an engy in an cruiser??
Nope, not unless a) he's a poor tank in an escort or b) you're in a cruiser that can equip dual heavy cannons.

With the right powers an escort can resist DHC's almost as well as a cruiser. As such anything less then DHC's will just tickle them (unless buffed by tac captain powers, but even then they aren't a major hazard in a 1v1). This goes especially if he's using the 2x piece borg set, which reliably heals sustained damage done by beam arrays and cannons.

From the looks of his build, you have no chance of killing him unless he's a bad player.

Virusdancers build is probably going to be the closest you're going to get.

Oh and don't bother with EWP, it's rather useless against decent escorts, especially ones with 2x APO.

If you're into beating someone in a 1v1 and are stuck with playing fed, I'd recommend getting either a sci ship (load it out with 2x VM and system engineer doffs) or an escort. Or wait until the Gal-X gets saucer sep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poopbang View Post
Use a tractor beam and subspace jump/Grav Well. It works wonders.
Only in making the escort player laugh his arse off.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 50 Engineer - Fleet Avenger
Selia - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Avenger
Toval - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Mogai

Last edited by orondis; 03-28-2013 at 08:13 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 265
# 9
03-28-2013, 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orondis View Post

Only in making the escort player laugh his arse off.
Unless you have high Aux... Then he sits there for 10 seconds, target his sheild systems, and open up with torps....
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 10
03-28-2013, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orondis View Post
Nope, not unless a) he's a poor tank in an escort or b) you're in a cruiser that can equip dual heavy cannons.

With the right powers an escort can resist DHC's almost as well as a cruiser. As such anything less then DHC's will just tickle them (unless buffed by tac captain powers, but even then they aren't a major hazard in a 1v1). This goes especially if he's using the 2x piece borg set, which reliably heals sustained damage done by beam arrays and cannons.

From the looks of his build, you have no chance of killing him unless he's a bad player.

Virusdancers build is probably going to be the closest you're going to get.

Oh and don't bother with EWP, it's rather useless against decent escorts, especially ones with 2x APO.

If you're into beating someone in a 1v1 and are stuck with playing fed, I'd recommend getting either a sci ship or an escort. Or wait until the Gal-X gets saucer sep.



Only in making the escort player laugh his arse off.
He's not a bad player, so this is pretty much what I was afraid of on the DHC front. Seems kind of annoying that given how many people are starting to show up with elite fleet shields, escorts can now tank as well, (if not better than a cruiser as cruisers aren't prime targets, thus stacking resists) as a cruiser.

I can't really do any damage, people are needing my heals less and less, but I can keep myself alive....though I am never a target. I didn't really want to turn this into a complain about cruisers thread, but what exactly is the point of fed cruisers now?

I never really understood the validity of EWP against escorts, or Grav Well for that matter.

I will try Virus's build out and see how it goes. Last ditch effort I suppose.
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