Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 31
03-29-2013, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfang240 View Post
what YOU think doesn't matter; YOU are not the one doing the coding for this game, and i'm seriously getting sick of these BS threads popping up every 5 damn minutes from people who can't be bothered to learn how to play the game, so they have to come here and try to ruin everyone else's experience by nerfing every little thing into utter useless garbage
I'd rather not have to play the game with one arm behind my back, which is how I feel about what you have to go through just to get Federation cruisers to output enough damage to be threatening. One of the things that I've found out when I gave up beams was just how damn effective CSV could be on a cruiser, more so than Fire At Will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjokruhlica View Post
IMO, which will of course be ignored, all beams need are some adjusting with the power drain and shield penetration properties, and they'd be fine. Beams will never be as powerful as cannons, and that is by design. The greater the firing arc, the less the damage. That's called balance.

By the way, my eng toon flies a Galor beam boat ( seven spiral waves and a cutting beam) and I do just fine with it. It takes a little longer to make things go boom, but that's a trade off for fact that I don't go boom.
That's probably all they need. Strange that proposals for such changes, simple as they are, are also ignored in equal measure. In any case, the point of my suggestion was not to make beams as powerful as cannons, but to carve out a niche for beams in which they do perform better than cannons at.

The thing about balance is that at present, the concept of a damage/firing arc trade-off doesn't seem to be quite applicable now, primarily because the weapons with more damage/smaller firing arc are the ones that are actually capable of dealing damage. I'd like to fly the Galor as well, but I think that the choice of such belies some of the points I've been making regarding Federation cruisers, including the tactically-oriented ones.

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-29-2013 at 07:33 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,076
# 32
03-29-2013, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Okay well let me put it this way.

Beam Fire At Will gives you no control over what you aim at, and becomes far less effective with each additional enemy that is within targeting range. Cannon Scatter Volley does not suffer from these flaws and more importantly, does not appear to have a cap on the maximum damage it is capable of dealing. The damage potential is already quite a bit higher in the first few seconds than Beam Fire At Will. It's just a much better ability overall, even though Beam Fire At Will can potentially be more useful in some situations than it.

I would also like to add that since the ability makes the escorts so damn efficient at killing mobs, it also obviates the need for crowd control abilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
While Beam Fire at Will will allow cruisers to attack stuff without even targeting it, it will likely end up missing pets, torpedoes, and mines or otherwise fail to neutralize them in the same way that a properly handled Scatter Volley could. It doesn't target everything so much as it targets anything, and the odd thing is that Scatter Volley is much better in that respect because it is much easier to prioritize targets with it.

Also, there's nothing that says that a cruiser can't have scatter volley, in which case the point about it being a "defensive ability" better suited for escorts is moot. When combined with DEM and cannon/turret (or even just turrets), CSV is far better at neutralizing pet and projectile spam than Beam Fire At Will, especially since it won't have to rely on Nadion Inversion to keep damage from dropping into the crapper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjokruhlica View Post
IMO, which will of course be ignored, all beams need are some adjusting with the power drain and shield penetration properties, and they'd be fine. Beams will never be as powerful as cannons, and that is by design. The greater the firing arc, the less the damage. That's called balance.

By the way, my eng toon flies a Galor beam boat ( seven spiral waves and a cutting beam) and I do just fine with it. It takes a little longer to make things go boom, but that's a trade off for fact that I don't go boom.
If you choose to use beam arrays thats how they unfortunately work until the beam power drain mechanic is addressed in a useful way by the devs, but according to posts I have seen it is the dreaded "Working as Intended" response. The way I personally use to keep the damage up when my engy is in his Galor is: a Purple space battery cool-down doff and being specced into "Batteries" skill, but I'm also running a dual aux2bat build on it with a wide-angle quantum torpedo (with torpedo spread-3) , BFAW 1and 2, cutting beam and 6x Spiral waves with Dem-3 and Tractor Beam repulsors for pure hull dmg since repel factor is non-exsistant with 5 aux.

But to address your point:

If scatter volley was dropped to 5 sec then the "escort" could just drop scatter volley and replace with torpedo spread-2 which is how i run my escorts usually and it clears spam just fine and if I feel I need a proc ..... throw on a mk xii chroniton, plasma or transphasic though quantums and the Romulan hyper-plasma torp are my personal favorites at present.

Good Hunting
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 430
# 33
03-29-2013, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
I'd rather not have to play the game with one arm behind my back, which is how I feel about what you have to go through just to get Federation cruisers to output enough damage to be threatening. One of the things that I've found out when I gave up beams was just how damn effective CSV could be on a cruiser, more so than Fire At Will.



That's probably all they need. Strange that proposals for such changes, simple as they are, are also ignored in equal measure. In any case, the point of my suggestion was not to make beams as powerful as cannons, but to carve out a niche for beams in which they do perform better than cannons at.

The thing about balance is that at present, the concept of a damage/firing arc trade-off doesn't seem to be quite applicable now, primarily because the weapons with more damage/smaller firing arc are the ones that are actually capable of dealing damage. I'd like to fly the Galor as well, but I think that the choice of such belies some of the points I've been making regarding Federation cruisers, including the tactically-oriented ones.
Beams already have niche where they perform better than cannons. Their DPS drop over distance is considerably less.

And the galor is functionally not much different than the Excelsior.

Last edited by sjokruhlica; 03-29-2013 at 08:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 34
03-29-2013, 07:41 PM
Lets reduce FAW duration to 5 seconds instead.

I bet some of you don't like me saying that, so why not stop saying CSV should be nerfed too.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 35
03-29-2013, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapla1755 View Post
If you choose to use beam arrays thats how they unfortunately work until the beam power drain mechanic is addressed in a useful way by the devs, but according to posts I have seen it is the dreaded "Working as Intended" response. The way I personally use to keep the damage up when my engy is in his Galor is: a Purple space battery cool-down doff and being specced into "Batteries" skill, but I'm also running a dual aux2bat build on it with a wide-angle quantum torpedo (with torpedo spread-3) , BFAW 1and 2, cutting beam and 6x Spiral waves with Dem-3 and Tractor Beam repulsors for pure hull dmg since repel factor is non-exsistant with 5 aux.

But to address your point:

If scatter volley was dropped to 5 sec then the "escort" could just drop scatter volley and replace with torpedo spread-2 which is how i run my escorts usually and it clears spam just fine and if I feel I need a proc ..... throw on a mk xii chroniton, plasma or transphasic though quantums and the Romulan hyper-plasma torp are my personal favorites at present.

Good Hunting
First reasonable counter-response in this entire thread.

At present, it seems that Engineering captains have to go through a lot of arm-twisting just to get anywhere with their cruisers, other than tanking. In my mind, this seems to point to a problem with their captain powers, entire ship category, BOff powers, and the like.

It's not so much that I see Scatter Volley as being overpowered, so much as seeing that again, it obviates the use of Beam Fire At Will in terms of spam clearance. For me, the issue has more to do with "cannons being better than beams at everything where it counts", and that the only areas in which beams are actually good at involve only require one beam weapon of any kind to be equipped.

The point about scatter volley being dropped in favour of torpedo spread is something that I did not quite think of until immediately after I posted the topic. Even then, I consider that something of a good thing, since at least people will bother with torpedoes, instead of using their cannons for everything.

And as for the other posters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjokruhlica View Post
Beams already have niche where they perform better than cannons. Their DPS drop over distance is considerably less.

And the galor is functionally not much different than the Excelsior.
Which would actually mean something if that margin weren't so small, or that the beams still suck at damage regardless.

And the Galor has better mobility, a very strong shield modifier, and a better BOff layout. In fact, the BOff layout is something that I would point to as being a particularly important (and sore) point for cruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
Lets reduce FAW duration to 5 seconds instead.

I bet some of you don't like me saying that, so why not stop saying CSV should be nerfed too.
I don't mind your spite as much as you mind my opinion.

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-29-2013 at 08:23 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 36
03-29-2013, 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Okay well let me put it this way.

Beam Fire At Will gives you no control over what you aim at, and becomes far less effective with each additional enemy that is within targeting range.

Let me put it this way.

You don't understand why BFAW exists.

It is a tanking tool, it clears spam and helps drawing multi-target aggro.

Beams are not designed to do the focused damage that Cannons are, they are designed as wide arc tools.

Cruisers are designed as Tanks/Healers, the sooner you understand this the sooner you will be happier with your cruiser or the sooner you will swap to a ship or weapon loadout that suits what you want to do.


What you want to do seems to be damage, so swap to cannons or swap to escort with DC/DHCs.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,926
# 37
03-29-2013, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Let me put it this way.

You don't understand why BFAW exists.

It is a tanking tool, it clears spam and helps drawing multi-target aggro.

Beams are not designed to do the focused damage that Cannons are, they are designed as wide arc tools.

Cruisers are designed as Tanks/Healers, the sooner you understand this the sooner you will be happier with your cruiser or the sooner you will swap to a ship or weapon loadout that suits what you want to do.


What you want to do seems to be damage, so swap to cannons or swap to escort with DC/DHCs.

This.


All these nerf threads will either go ignored (Hopefully), or they will nerf the tacticals so that STFs will be harder for everybody.


OP, why don't you try to see how you can improve the beams, instead of wrecking other's people's stuff just because your own is not to your liking?

Or are all these nerf threads made just to troll the escort captains? I have a feeling this may be true.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,671
# 38
03-29-2013, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Let me put it this way.

You don't understand why BFAW exists.

It is a tanking tool, it clears spam and helps drawing multi-target aggro.
CSV is better at multi-target threat generation because it actually deals appreciable damage and can be directed, while increasing the damage dealt to the primary target. FAW clears spam and then tickles the enemy. You'll generate enough threat to pull targets away only if nothing else is shooting at them.

CSV does more damage than normal to each target. FAW does more damage than normal overall, but divided across multiple targets. If all FAW was designed to do was clear spam, then TBR would be a better choice since it doesn't require a to-hit roll.

The only advantage FAW has compared to CSV is the increased targeting arc. The latter can stand in for CRF as a DPS-boosting tool, the former only increases DPS if the primary target is the only one in range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Cruisers are designed as Tanks/Healers, the sooner you understand this the sooner you will be happier with your cruiser or the sooner you will swap to a ship or weapon loadout that suits what you want to do.
Except that "tanking" requires a lot more setup when you have neutered damage. The best way to generate Threat is to deal damage. If you're not generating enough Threat to draw targets away from Escorts, you're not tanking.

Last edited by mandoknight89; 03-29-2013 at 08:58 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,839
# 39
03-29-2013, 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Let me put it this way.

You don't understand why BFAW exists.

It is a tanking tool, it clears spam and helps drawing multi-target aggro.

Beams are not designed to do the focused damage that Cannons are, they are designed as wide arc tools.

Cruisers are designed as Tanks/Healers, the sooner you understand this the sooner you will be happier with your cruiser or the sooner you will swap to a ship or weapon loadout that suits what you want to do.


What you want to do seems to be damage, so swap to cannons or swap to escort with DC/DHCs.
I agree.
In Cryptics devs opinion, a cruisers job is to clear the way and help their beloved escorts.
So they gave them Fire at will, so they are able to destroy Mines, fighter ships and to get the beating of enemy ships, so Escort jockeys don't have to be bothered with annoying stuff like that.

In order to make your Cruiser effectively use their already way too few tactical BOFF slots, i would recomend to use single Cannons and Turrets.
At least for me it works much better, since you can focus all your weapon power on one single (CRF) or at least very few (CSV) enemy ships.

Personally, i don't really understand why they couldn't just make all energy weapons BOFF powers availlble for all energy weapon types.
Maybe it would have made flying Starfleet cruisers not boring enough for them, so their beloved Escorts wouldn't be popular enough in STO.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 40
03-29-2013, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Let me put it this way.

You don't understand why BFAW exists.

It is a tanking tool, it clears spam and helps drawing multi-target aggro.

Beams are not designed to do the focused damage that Cannons are, they are designed as wide arc tools.

Cruisers are designed as Tanks/Healers, the sooner you understand this the sooner you will be happier with your cruiser or the sooner you will swap to a ship or weapon loadout that suits what you want to do.

What you want to do seems to be damage, so swap to cannons or swap to escort with DC/DHCs.
What I want is for beams to not feel as pointless as they currently are. Why the hell would I want to draw aggro in Starbase 24 without doing as much damage in return? It's also not exactly an effective spam-clearer either: I can generally get better overall results through Scatter Volley and DEM. And I'm not sure that you've noticed this quirk, but Cannon Scatter Volley also increases the effective firing arc of weapons. Point is, I get better results either way with Scatter Volley, both in terms of drawing fire, clearing spam AND actual damage.

If cruisers are designed as "tanks/healers", then why the hell are there eight weapon slots on them? Why the hell are there tactically oriented cruisers like the Sovereign refit and the Excelsior, and why the hell should I bother with weapons at all if I'm not meant to deal damage? That's why I went with the whole "Unarmed Cruiser" deal and rolled with it until I found that carriers were better at the healing and tanking business while being able to do more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
This.

All these nerf threads will either go ignored (Hopefully), or they will nerf the tacticals so that STFs will be harder for everybody.

OP, why don't you try to see how you can improve the beams, instead of wrecking other's people's stuff just because your own is not to your liking?

Or are all these nerf threads made just to troll the escort captains? I have a feeling this may be true.
If I was trolling, I'd put in the bare minimum to keep the thread going and wouldn't care about my arguments in the long term. That being said, I am continually surprised at how easy it is to provoke others on this for no other cause than "oh no, somebody has said something that may affect me in a bad way".

I put this up because what I want to see is some sort of differentiation: that beams are good at some things and cannons are good at others. That is not the case at present, with cannons being good at anything that matters and beam arrays having limited possibilities in that respect. The only things beams are good at require only one beam on a ship.

I could suggest how beams could be improved, but all the ways that they could simply be just a bit better than now have been ignored. Worse, some people actually shoot them down, just on the basis that it alters how they perceive as how the game should work. I make a suggestion about fitting in 2 universal BOff stations and a universal console slot to every Federation cruiser, and what I got is a whole lot of booing. I don't think a lot of people appreciate just how restrictive an Engineering focus really is.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:45 PM.