Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 41
03-29-2013, 09:26 PM
Nope Cannon scatter volley isn't OP, beams and FAW are, it needs to be nerfed. Reduce its dps, increase its power drain, and make it last only 5 seconds.

There is about as much justification for my proposal as there is for the OP's.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 806
# 42
03-29-2013, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinead51 View Post
Er,that'll be a resounding NO
I would agree totally...

***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 43
03-29-2013, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandoknight89 View Post
CSV is better at multi-target threat generation because
CSV is limited to 3 targets.

But if you think it's a better tool, great!

Go ahead and slot it. Every cruiser can slot single cannons.

So slot those single cannons, and rock on.

The rest is nothing new, I have 2 full on tank builds.

And yes, you can hold aggro with beams and a full on threat load out.


With the threat control skill, threat consoles, fleet +threat deflector and attack pattern delta dominion doff with +100% threat for 15s (you can stack THREE of them) there are enough threat generation tools available.

If you are unable at that point to hold aggro with an Eng/Cruiser it means, most likely, one of two things:

1) You need to try harder.

2) You are grouped with PvPers that probably also have threat control for the resistance bonus.




Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Why the hell would I want to draw aggro in Starbase 24 without doing as much damage in return?
Why the hell are you even bringing a beam cruiser with aggro control to this? It's poorly designed content, it is what it is.




Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
I can generally get better overall results through Scatter Volley and DEM.
Then, um, continue to do that?

Maybe beam arrays are not for your playstyle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
If cruisers are designed as "tanks/healers", then why the hell are there eight weapon slots on them?
Have you seen an alpha strike bop kill in kerrat?

BoPs only have 6 weapons.

How many weapon slots you have is not an indication of your role.

What kind of weapons you can slot, your hull & shield mod, your ship's console layout, your ship's boff layout - especially number of Tac powers and what your CMD is, demonstrate your role to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Why the hell are there tactically oriented cruisers like the Sovereign refit and the Excelsior, and why the hell should I bother with weapons at all if I'm not meant to deal damage?
Why the hell are there Escorts with a Ltc Eng or Sci?

It's called flavor, with a slightly different boff layout for a slightly different playstyle slant.

That Ltc Tac on the Excelsior? It doesn't turn you into an escort, any more than Ltc Eng on the Armitage turns it into a Cruiser.

Who said you shouldn't do any damage?

Not doing any damage =/= Doing some sustained damage =/= Doing high, focused spike & sustained damage

Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 44
03-29-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
[In toto]
...and that has nothing to do with poor ship or ability design? Perhaps being useless in that particular instance should mean something about the value of "aggro control" in the game.

Even with a tactically-oriented cruiser, I still would encounter problems dealing damage unless I switch over to a Auxiliary to Battery build. Only by switching to cannons do I notice a considerable improvement in all relevant factors. As for drawing heavy aggro from multiple targets, that is only particularly relevant in one instance, and completely irrelevant in PvP. Either way, the ability is still useless.

As for escorts that have a Lt Cmdr Eng slot? It actually does something for them because they are already good at something else. This is because Engineering tree as a whole is designed for damage-resistance buffing and repairs, which is nice to have for any ship but means that an excessive focus (like what you'd see in a cruiser) makes a ship no more than a brick. Even with an Lt Cmdr of another type, you will find that dealing damage in a cruiser is very difficult unless you go for a specific build (which involves considerably more expense just to get at a decent level).

The cruiser statline is also terrible for just about anything: being built for "tanking" and for "healing" does not explain the awful turn rate, especially with the weapons that are supposedly designed for cruiser use. Furthermore, the whole point of being "good at tanking" or whatnot starts getting pointless when carriers come into the picture.

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-29-2013 at 10:29 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 619
# 45
03-29-2013, 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
While Beam Fire at Will will allow cruisers to attack stuff without even targeting it, it will likely end up missing pets, torpedoes, and mines or otherwise fail to neutralize them in the same way that a properly handled Scatter Volley could. It doesn't target everything so much as it targets anything, and the odd thing is that Scatter Volley is much better in that respect because it is much easier to prioritize targets with it.

Also, there's nothing that says that a cruiser can't have scatter volley, in which case the point about it being a "defensive ability" better suited for escorts is moot. When combined with DEM and cannon/turret (or even just turrets), CSV is far better at neutralizing pet and projectile spam than Beam Fire At Will, especially since it won't have to rely on Nadion Inversion to keep damage from dropping into the crapper.

well...
if you think so, why don't you try flying an escort and using CSV as an anti-spam?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 155
# 46
03-29-2013, 10:36 PM
Faw fires all your beams in all directions that is their arc...scatter still in a small lil firing arc. Yah so op LOL. troll go home bro, learn the game some more before you cry nerf, people like you that destory the game that obviously know nothing.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 47
03-29-2013, 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
well...
if you think so, why don't you try flying an escort and using CSV as an anti-spam?
I have, actually.

For the first time, I've actually managed to score first in SB24, instead of just second or third. Speaking of which, I only started regularly scoring second or third after I refitted my cruiser with cannons/turrets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512 View Post
Faw fires all your beams in all directions that is their arc...scatter still in a small lil firing arc. Yah so op LOL. troll go home bro, learn the game some more before you cry nerf, people like you that destory the game that obviously know nothing.
Not so little an arc, because the CSV gives your firing arc a pseudo-extension. Combine it with cannon/turret, and it becomes irrelevant...
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 262
# 48
03-29-2013, 10:56 PM
why don't you wait for them to fix the bfaw skill before insinuating that a working skill be nerfed to the level of a currently acknowledged broken skill's level? currently, bfaw does not apply the correct weapons modifiers to the attacks, thus losing out on a good chunk of dps. if you really wanted to improve bfaw, you'd argue that it's multiple copy cooldown be reduced from 20 seconds to 15 seconds.

source:
Updated Fire at Will:

Beam: Fire at Will is now capable of benefiting from weapon modifiers such as [Acc], [CrtH], etc.
The energy drain inflicted by Fire at Will activation now only happens if you are actually able to fire upon an enemy

regardless of what happens, there will never be parity between escorts and non escorts in this dps heavy game. unless a significant change is made to the pve experience, escorts and their cannons will reign supreme... maybe. could be ranked behind escort carriers like the jemmy and the armitage. but either way, you get the point.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,499
# 49
03-29-2013, 11:07 PM
I don't know if it's been said here or not (I didn't care to read through some of the bigger text walls), but here goes.

Escorts and their abilities don't need a nerf. Cruisers and their abilities (such as beam array power drain) need a buff.
I am the STO Lorax. I picked myself up and left, until the day the fun is replanted.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,674
# 50
03-29-2013, 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
CSV is limited to 3 targets.
As I understand it, CSV is limited to 3 targets per volley, meaning that if it clears spam in the first volley, it can select two different targets in the next. Its damage is enough that it will generally clear spam targets in each volley.

I personally don't think that neutering CSV (i.e. knocking it down to 5s, which is a nearly useless buff period for EPtW and isn't any better for CSV... it's more-or-less bringing it down to a single volley) is the solution, but I do think that either it needs a tweak, or beam powers do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
But if you think it's a better tool, great!

Go ahead and slot it. Every cruiser can slot single cannons.

So slot those single cannons, and rock on.
I don't want to use single cannons. Cryptic, in their infinite wisdom, decided that single cannons should fire from the same hardpoints as turrets. This looks stupid on a Cruiser. Part of the reason I bought the Regent was to stop having all my rear weapons fire from a single point, I don't want to switch to a build where all my weapons fire from one or two points.

I honestly would rather have the entire system reworked so that the optimal solution for DPS would be to carry a mix of cannons, beams, and torpedoes, but that isn't going to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
With the threat control skill, threat consoles, fleet +threat deflector and attack pattern delta dominion doff with +100% threat for 15s (you can stack THREE of them) there are enough threat generation tools available.

If you are unable at that point to hold aggro with an Eng/Cruiser it means, most likely, one of two things:

1) You need to try harder.

2) You are grouped with PvPers that probably also have threat control for the resistance bonus.
I can hold threat. The problem is, I need to invest in a lot of my resources to get it away from the Escorts, then get little to no recognition for it. I stopped using FAW in most cases because it doesn't provide threat control, it just aggravates everything that the Escorts aren't shooting unless there's only one target in the area. The changes on Redshirt help, but FAW will remain a situational power in my book... the changes mostly just improved it within those narrow situations (mostly, clearing spam). CSV, on the other hand, is a workhorse power that improves the power of an attack run by not only increasing the damage on the main target, but also by copying the damage over to the auxiliary targets, with no drawback other than that it deals less bonus damage than CRF against the primary target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512 View Post
Faw fires all your beams in all directions that is their arc...scatter still in a small lil firing arc. Yah so op LOL. troll go home bro, learn the game some more before you cry nerf, people like you that destory the game that obviously know nothing.
Except that FAW has each beam target opponents individually, meaning that its power on any one opponent is reduced the more are in the firing arc. CSV has the cannon spread essentially copy itself over to each target, dealing the full damage to each of the targets in range.
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