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Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 21
04-05-2013, 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alopen View Post
Regardless of whether Spartan soldiers navigated at night by stars, they didn't invent how to navigate or read star constellations. Sailors navigating across oceans also navigate by the stars. Does that prove they invented astronomy? Or more importantly the compass? Did the vikings invent their form of navigation to sail the seas or raid villages in England? It just so happens that once you can navigate, the next step is to raid villages in England.

Newton invented calculus to prove gravity. Archimedes learned how to determine mass in a bathtub to determine if a crown was legit or not. Hippocrates pushed biology for the sake of saving people not killing them. History channel is interesting but really take it with a grain of salt. A number of professors role their eyes at conclusions drawn in those shows. The Wright Brothers were not military scientists. They made bicycles for a living. Thomas Edison was a corporate entrepeneur. As was Henry Ford and his assembly line so invaluable to WW2 production. Guess what, that was made to sell more cars in peacetime.
Capitalism pushes more inventions than any military could afford to research. Even today.

Also look at the cold war. Both Soviet Russia and the US pushed military science for better weapons. In the beginning, the Soviets had the lead in many fields. By the end the US led in nearly every field. There is alot more to science research than the purpose of the research (build bigger bomb/ stronger tank, etc.)

Besides, Klingons won't utilize thalaron weaponry or research in game. So KDF has its own limits as well. Just saying . . .
History channel has nothing to do with it, multiple classes in history does.

Spartans were the first to study constellations, followed by the Athenians, primary focus of studying the constellations were to determine there location, not by looking around, but just by looking up and identifying their angle.

Newton did not create calculus, he created an algebraic equation yes, but he did not create calculus. The origin of modern day calculus, is derived from Manhatten project.

Archemides never had any understanding of "Mass", "Mass" never existed scientifically until the 1800's when they discovered the properties of mass. And how did that come about? I'll let you take a guess, it involves fortifications made by the Southern States, and a man who fled what is now modern day Poland.

Hippocrates studies were conducted by military mandates. Do a research project on him. Vikings pushed for better navigation, and more advanced ships to be able to push further outward for their plunder. The Vikings way of life was on the sea, and destroying and plundering everything they could.

Henry Fords first automobiles, sold to the US Military.

The WRight brothers after showing their first prototype, was granted military funding to continue their studies. Thomas Edison was funded by the military department of congress, it's how he got his first paychecks. Almost all of the funding he had for his research and development, came from tax payers.

Soviet Union and the United States pushed so far during the Cold War, the only reason the US came out on top was the Soviet Unions decision to push into Afghanistan.

As far as R&D, so much was achieved, because we wanted means of delivering the highest amount of devestation, with the least amount of resources. The Helicopter, is one such invention that came to be, soly because of this.

We had more funding going on into our military during the cold war, than we ever did even to this day. The Microwave was even created through military research. The computer you use today, was for military applications.

As far as the Klingons go, yes, they do do research into Theteron Radiation, ever read the novels? The Klingons even put research and developed a phased shifting torpedo that phases between subspace and regular space, creating a quantum singularity that can destroy an entire planet. (Read the novels, Ezri Dax and Captain Riker were sent to create a treaty to control who can, and how the subspace torpedos can be used through a weapons treaty.)

Military tech, Klingons are far ahead of the Feds.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 22
04-05-2013, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by huesoparker View Post
Maybe this is offbase, and I'm gonna get flamed for this, but it always seemed to me that the producers of Star Trek seemed to be making the Federation likened to the US and her allies, and Klingons, Romulans and other "enemy races" similar to the Germans of WW II and the Russians of the Cold War. So, extend this don't the starships of the Feds seem like the P-51, P-38 and B-17s? This would then make the KDF ships feel like either German FW-190 and ME-109 and ME-262.

Does anyone feel me on this, or am I completely stupid?
The inspiration of the KDF was the Vikings. Inspiration for the Romulan Star Empire was Rome. When he was asked/interviewed, TOS main races (KDF and Rom) were inspired by ancient civilizations during the time periods. With modern day twists of NATO, Warsaw Pact, and the UN as a whole. Tal Shiar was inspired by the KGB, while the Carassians (Can't remember the name of their intelligence service) intelligence service was modeled over the CIA.

Star Trek had huge political focus groups between races, etc. The Federation overall was more focused on representing the United Nations, pushing as the galaxies police force, etc. THis was all in the interview on what made him come up with star trek.

Which overtime evolved into a grand twist of plots, and endless possibilities. He took the world around him and started one of the biggest franchises in the world with it.

But no, you're not completely stupid. Throughout the series, throughout canon, there are many paraphrased references between ancient and modern cultures.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 33
# 23
04-05-2013, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benovide View Post

Spartans were the first to study constellations, followed by the Athenians, primary focus of studying the constellations were to determine there location, not by looking around, but just by looking up and identifying their angle.
I chose one of your statements at random to look up. A quick search for "Astronomy" brought up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_astronomy. Prehistoric Egyptians apparently used crude astronomy to figure out a calendar, cycles, and the pattern of flooding for the Nile.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 24
04-05-2013, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearlessteapot View Post
I chose one of your statements at random to look up. A quick search for "Astronomy" brought up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_astronomy. Prehistoric Egyptians apparently used crude astronomy to figure out a calendar, cycles, and the pattern of flooding for the Nile.
Look deeper. 12 month calender we used today was created by Rome. Centuries earlier.........
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 33
# 25
04-05-2013, 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benovide View Post
Look deeper. 12 month calender we used today was created by Rome. Centuries earlier.........
Umm, the link I just gave indicates that the Egyptians studied Astronomy several thousand years before the Romans.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 26
04-05-2013, 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearlessteapot View Post
Umm, the link I just gave indicates that the Egyptians studied Astronomy several thousand years before the Romans.
Open a history book.

The 12 Month Calender we use today, dates back from 1900 BC from the earliest discovered calender. The months of the year are named after the Roman Gods, and several DemiGods.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 33
# 27
04-05-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benovide View Post
Open a history book.

The 12 Month Calender we use today, dates back from 1900 BC from the earliest discovered calender. The months of the year are named after the Roman Gods, and several DemiGods.
You created a straw man argument. I said the prehistoric egyptians used astronomy, and designed their own calendar. You countered with, "Yea well, the Romans made a 12 month calendar!" You also falsely claimed that the Romans somehow created their calendar before PREHISTORIC egyptians.

That's all also irrelevant. Your original assertion was that the Spartans were the first to use astronomy, I disproved that. Who the hell brought up a 12 month calendar?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,035
# 28
04-06-2013, 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by huesoparker View Post
Maybe this is offbase, and I'm gonna get flamed for this, but it always seemed to me that the producers of Star Trek seemed to be making the Federation likened to the US and her allies, and Klingons, Romulans and other "enemy races" similar to the Germans of WW II and the Russians of the Cold War. So, extend this don't the starships of the Feds seem like the P-51, P-38 and B-17s? This would then make the KDF ships feel like either German FW-190 and ME-109 and ME-262.

Does anyone feel me on this, or am I completely stupid?
The only error I can find, it's actually a common one.
It's BF-109 (Bayerische Flugzeugwerke) because German terminology uses the name of the manufacturer for the perfix, not the name of the designer.

Anyway, "united earth" as it was called in the first season (the was no "Federation") was supposed to represent the U.S. while the two major aliens were supposed to represent somewhat exaggerated foreign powers.
With the Klingons it was originally a bit of Soviets and a bit of Mongol Horde and with the Romulans a bit of Space Romans and the Germans from "The Enemy Below".
This later changed a bit and became Romulans as the Red Chinese who get tech from the Soviets (the D-7).

I'm not sure whether direct analogies for the ships and fighters work properly because the technological levels are somewhat similar in Trek while German craft like the Me-262 were new and untested (and tended to overhead and burn up).

Something that might work a bit better are actually tanks: the olt Soviet tanks were lighter than their counterparts (both German and Western allies), uncomfortable to drive and simple in design.
But they were darn sturdy and worked and continue to work.
And while you can usually tell the difference between the T-55 and T-72, the general layout remains the same over more than half a century.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 29
04-06-2013, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearlessteapot View Post
You created a straw man argument. I said the prehistoric egyptians used astronomy, and designed their own calendar. You countered with, "Yea well, the Romans made a 12 month calendar!" You also falsely claimed that the Romans somehow created their calendar before PREHISTORIC egyptians.

That's all also irrelevant. Your original assertion was that the Spartans were the first to use astronomy, I disproved that. Who the hell brought up a 12 month calendar?
You did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 33
# 30
04-06-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benovide View Post
You did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I did what? I said, "calendar," not "the 12 month calendar we still use today." And again, it's a strawman argument. You are ignoring the main point and trying to pick apart a semantical argument. I provided evidence to show that astronomy was NOT invented by the Spartans as you claimed. It existed in prehistoric times and was used as a means to mark the dates of religious festivals (calendar!), cycles, and the pattern of the flooding of the nile.

It all goes back to your original assertion that all science was embarked upon due to military need. That's simply incorrect, as several of us now have provided proof for.
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