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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 63
# 21
04-10-2013, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
Yes, but you are forgetting the "regular" golds, as well as the constant influx of zen bought with real money.

Just a quick scan of the first few zen posts on the dil exchange revealed 200K Zen just waiting to be bought with dil.

In the short run, it would make little diffrence, yes, but in the long run (and I don't mean 62 months), people would pretty quickly figure this out, and shift the way people subscribe to this game.
I don't know how many regular golds are out there. Most Golds complain there isn't enough value in a Gold sub beyond one month so I am assuming there are not that many Golds left.

Where I would like clarification is how 30,000 Zen LTSs would shift the way people subscribe to the game. The 30,000 Zen is coming from somewhere. Either its "free" Zen from the current subscriptions or its "cash" Zen people bought and put up in the exchange. And once it is gone it won't come back at more than 500 "free" Zen per month.

Let's say there is 600,000 "free" Zen on the exchange for sale right now? That's 20 LTSs. Also, that's 600,00 Zen not going into other stuff like "free" Vestas. If an LTS is purchased for say, $100 cash and 20,000 "free" Zen that is 20,000 Zen now gone forever. That is 4 Vesta packs that are not going to be free and have to be purchased with cash.

Let's use this example. Its really easy to part with $5 or $10 USD. But its huge to part with $300 USD when you can go get 5 new PS or XBox games with that amount. Right now there is $600 in "free" Zen on the market. That allows for 60 people to get $10 in "free" stuff. Those people might be willing to spend $10 if that $600 wasn't up for grabs.

However if three people come along, and buy up $200 worth of Zen each, then chip in $100 in cash for an LTS, PWE makes $300 USD plus $600 of "free" Zen is now gone. So those 60 people who would have gotten things for $0 decide they rather not wait and grind against a huge exchange rate and will just spend the cash. So PWE just made $900. Above they made nothing. Yes PWE did lose $600 in LTS sales, but they made $600 in Zen sales to pay for other things.

All that is happening is moving income from one pocket (LTS sales) to another pocket (ship/key sales). But its still PWE's pants regardless.

It's hard to justify buying Zen with cash when you can get $.80 USD a day per char if you are gung ho about getting Dil and refining it. But when its only $.16 USD per day most people are just going to buy the thing they really want rather than mindless grind.

To me the LTS is worth $100. So I am going to go grind 20,000 Zen and pay in cash with the rest. But if the LTS aways remains at $300 then PWE will never get my $100 cash as I will never buy an LTS. So who ends up losing? $100 is better than $0. It's still going to take 20 months for STO to pay back the $100 cash in stipend.

Please explain why this is a bad idea.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,434
# 22
04-10-2013, 07:22 AM
I don't think you understand the point of an LTS from their perspective.

A LTS makes less money than a subscription at $15/month in 20 months, ignoring whatever impact the stipend has. PWE doesn't run STO intending for it to shut down at any time. PWI has been running for 8 years, they certainly expect at least another 5 from STO. What this means is that the preference is for people to subscribe, not get LTS. For the longest time there were a lot of complaints that the LTS was not worth the money, and that's probably the reason.

If you paid attention to the LTS sales, it generally takes place when they want a boost in revenue for their quarterly reports. They do something and need to show results, so put a sale on LTS in the hopes of getting a bump.

You've also missed my point, which had nothing to do with the stipend or grinding. Existing Zen is worthless to them. It's already revenue earned or expense accrued, and the only reason to increase its value is to increase demand. Judging by their statements and direction, the lockboxes are more than sufficient in generating demand. Combine this with the fact that Dilithium is a "time invested" currency, and an increase in the value of Zen (by increasing a demand in Zen) is contrary to that purpose. There is literally zero reason for allowing LTS to be purchased with Zen.

Every single reason stated thus far is essentially "I want to spend less money", followed by statements that are literally the opposite of what PWE wants. They don't care if you don't buy an LTS because you claim you'll otherwise keep playing without it. If you're going to keep playing, they want you do be a subscriber or indulging in micro-transactions - they don't want you to be an LTS as that damages their revenue stream.

The purpose of the LTS is to get more money out of people who play less than 20 months. The purpose of LTS sales is to essentially cash an annuity for a short-term bump in revenue. You've completely missed the reasons for the LTS, and keep telling them why they shouldn't make it available for Zen.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 203
# 23
04-10-2013, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
I don't think you understand the point of an LTS from their perspective.

A LTS makes less money than a subscription at $15/month in 20 months, ignoring whatever impact the stipend has. PWE doesn't run STO intending for it to shut down at any time. PWI has been running for 8 years, they certainly expect at least another 5 from STO. What this means is that the preference is for people to subscribe, not get LTS. For the longest time there were a lot of complaints that the LTS was not worth the money, and that's probably the reason.

If you paid attention to the LTS sales, it generally takes place when they want a boost in revenue for their quarterly reports. They do something and need to show results, so put a sale on LTS in the hopes of getting a bump.

You've also missed my point, which had nothing to do with the stipend or grinding. Existing Zen is worthless to them. It's already revenue earned or expense accrued, and the only reason to increase its value is to increase demand. Judging by their statements and direction, the lockboxes are more than sufficient in generating demand. Combine this with the fact that Dilithium is a "time invested" currency, and an increase in the value of Zen (by increasing a demand in Zen) is contrary to that purpose. There is literally zero reason for allowing LTS to be purchased with Zen.

Every single reason stated thus far is essentially "I want to spend less money", followed by statements that are literally the opposite of what PWE wants. They don't care if you don't buy an LTS because you claim you'll otherwise keep playing without it. If you're going to keep playing, they want you do be a subscriber or indulging in micro-transactions - they don't want you to be an LTS as that damages their revenue stream.

The purpose of the LTS is to get more money out of people who play less than 20 months. The purpose of LTS sales is to essentially cash an annuity for a short-term bump in revenue. You've completely missed the reasons for the LTS, and keep telling them why they shouldn't make it available for Zen.
I have to agree. I'm LTS and loving it. I bought it on pre-order before STO went live. It SAVES ME money not the company
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Growing old is inevitable. Growing up is optional.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 63
# 24
04-10-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
A LTS makes less money than a subscription at $15/month in 20 months, ignoring whatever impact the stipend has. What this means is that the preference is for people to subscribe, not get LTS.
If the preference is to get people to subscribe to Gold Subscriptions, why then does it make more sense to subscribe for one month of Gold, then cancel, and just buy Zen outright?

If their goal is to make people subscribe month after month, then a Gold subscription has to give more than $15 in value each month. Currently it gives $5 after the first month. I did one month and then stopped because of this.

Why then not make the Romulan faction Gold and LTS only?

You are correct about the lock boxes. That seems to be the main engine that drives STO.

As long as there is not lock box burn out then selling anything else is unnecessary.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 25
04-10-2013, 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
So what about Zen purchased with Dil?

All Zen that are submitted to the Dil Exchange are locked to STO, and theres no way to tell what was earned through Dil and What was given as Stipend... They'd have to re-work the entire Dil exchange to make that happen.

Again:

-> Subscriber earns Zen Stipend -> Sells it for dil -> Player buying zen Buys LTS-> NEW Subscriber earns stipen -> Sells it for dil -> Player buying zen Buys LTS-> NEW Subscriber earns stipen -> ...
Not quite sure you really understood my response to the topic. My post was pointing out an alternative payment option that could be utilized for people to get a lifetime sub that doesn't cause a lose in revenue for PWE at the same time...

As for no way to tell? there is a way. Very simple coding can track what was obtained via the store (Credit card) and via the exchange.

***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,434
# 26
04-11-2013, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobayashikumiho View Post
If the preference is to get people to subscribe to Gold Subscriptions, why then does it make more sense to subscribe for one month of Gold, then cancel, and just buy Zen outright?
Their preference is Gold over LTS, but not necessarily Gold over micro-transactions.
The old subscription model doesn't work (which is obvious if you look at every MMO other than WoW) so they're not going to want to aggressively drive people to Gold by denial of content.

If you look at all of PWE's games, their business model doesn't really aim for subscriptions but micro-transactions. They don't actually seem to care too much about Gold or LTS.

If a player isn't going to last, then they'd prefer they sink in LTS and lose money. If the player will last, they'd prefer they go Gold and pay more. This isn't even something to attract new players, it's something entirely for continuing long term players, who they don't even want to give an LTS to.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 27
04-11-2013, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
Their preference is Gold over LTS, but not necessarily Gold over micro-transactions.
The old subscription model doesn't work (which is obvious if you look at every MMO other than WoW) so they're not going to want to aggressively drive people to Gold by denial of content.

If you look at all of PWE's games, their business model doesn't really aim for subscriptions but micro-transactions. They don't actually seem to care too much about Gold or LTS.

If a player isn't going to last, then they'd prefer they sink in LTS and lose money. If the player will last, they'd prefer they go Gold and pay more. This isn't even something to attract new players, it's something entirely for continuing long term players, who they don't even want to give an LTS to.
You forgot another factor. Those that want to go LTS but simply cannot afford that kind of outlay in one single transaction. Which micro-transaction favors as your arguement points out...

I AM a Gold member, I pay a subscription MONTHLY. I Have paid more in subs then a LTS costs, but for one reason, I can't afford to fork out well over 300 bucks (Exchange rate) in one single go so I have to settle for the lower monthly amount.

I HAVE been doing this for over 1000 days. I have contributed more in subs than EVERY LTS in this game. Yet I can't get an LTS. And on top of that, People like me get left out and ignored when a promotion comes and the LTS that paid less gets to participate or reap the rewards...

So it is about time Pakled World looks at a way for people that want LTS to be able to get one.

Now in this my original post on this topic stands. Accumulate zen via PAYMENTS NOT via in-game exchange to be able to pay for a LTS. We accumulate a set amount and are able to transfer that into an LTS.

Before THAT guys barks on about this cant be traced blah blah it can be, so very easily (The coding for this is already BEING USED). There are so many options open...

It's about time Pakled World recognizes it's contributors and long term ones at that and thinks about how it can actually reward them...

***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010

Last edited by wolfpacknz; 04-11-2013 at 08:03 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 29
# 28
04-11-2013, 08:42 AM
I think that if you have subbed for 1000 days or more they should make your account lifetime. as for the $300 not being worth it for a LTS, I think it was Lilly Garret on his youtube channel that did a calculation of the value of services you get in vet rewards for being life time.

Based on having 3 characters you would receive over $700 worth of stuff, from ships, costumes, etc. So I think it is worth the money. I think selling it in the C-Store is a bad idea, but automatically turning 1000 day or even 8 or 9 hundred day vets to life members would be the way forward.

Can't afford it in one go just sub and wait, can't wait spend $300
Commanding Officer the 10th Fleet
the user formally known as kiss.my.rear.admiral
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,434
# 29
04-12-2013, 07:25 AM
You guys keep posting arguments you think support this proposal, while doing exactly the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpacknz View Post
I AM a Gold member, I pay a subscription MONTHLY. I Have paid more in subs then a LTS costs, but for one reason, I can't afford to fork out well over 300 bucks (Exchange rate) in one single go so I have to settle for the lower monthly amount.
If you could have gotten an LTS, you would have paid less. Allowing you to get an LTS doesn't sound like any sort of sensible business decision.

Further, the entire point of offering an LTS is to get a lump sum today instead of an annuity. It's nonsensical for them to sell a product intended to give a large one-time increase in revenue in a fashion that does not give a one-time increase in revenue.

You yourself want an LTS because you'd pay less. That's exactly the opposite of what the supplier wants. I'm not saying the reasons provided are "wrong", I'm saying they make absolutely no sense to PWE.

As an aside, I kind of expect a sale on LTS in May when the Romulans come out, since that will look good on their financial statements and help justify the investment in developing playable Romulans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solantolval View Post
I think that if you have subbed for 1000 days or more they should make your account lifetime.
Why? You got exactly what you paid for.

Further, when you purchase an LTS you're assuming risk. If you do not (or cannot) play you don't get full value for your money. Your loss is as great as $300. They have your money, there was no risk for them.
If you purchase Gold you're assuming considerably less risk. If you do not (or cannot) play you don't get full value for your money. Your loss is as great as $15. You didn't assume the risk.

The two are not equal. Just because you happened to consistently pay every month doesn't retroactively make it equal to having paid a lump sum. That's not how it works. If an apartment costs $300 to purchase, just because you pay $15 rent for 20 months doesn't mean you suddenly own the apartment.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk

Last edited by darkjeff; 04-12-2013 at 07:37 AM.
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