Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,734
# 81
04-12-2013, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
/lol PvP

Saying a ship is useless because its not good for PvP is really stacking the deck. Damn near 90% of the game is not good for PvP. Most people don't PvP, either. Hell she could be a total waste in PvP. Me and most of the population really don't care. Most ships, gear, and setup are a total waste in PvP. Saying something is bad for PvP is like saying the sky is blue.

If you want a PvP ship, maybe look at the PvP forums... with the handful of people who honestly care about PvP.

Tor'Khat Vs Bort tanking? While I have no doubt a Florcha can tank, it will not tank better then a Bort geared and specced to do so, not with the Bort using its unis for tanking. The bort will be able to recover from more hits faster, where the florcha would have had to tucked tail and ran.

Fleet Negh? Yup, I'd say she tanks better. But she won't out DPS her. That is kinda the point... All those unis and 3 versions? She is supposed to be a jack of all trades.

To me its another case of people trying to turn the ship into something its not. She is big, she is slow, and she is versatile. Of course ships that are dedicated to specific functions are better at those functions. That does not make a ship useless... which is all I said at the outset.

You can have your ship measuring contest, I could care less, but I find it funny when people say a ship is useless when its not. To me it shows they don't know how to fly it.

Edit: The ship you all should be pointing out is the Fleet Kamarang? Hell I don't remember its name... the KDF ambassador clone... /drool...
counter-arguement being, 'How many times can you run the same exact mission before it gets old?' Prior to S7 I ran a little experiment-all the FA content, plus all the sTFs...

in a Tier 3 ship, on "Elite".

Pretty much the same outcome as running them on T5 ships. Result being that even on "elite" most of hte PvE content, once you know what the script is, can be run on just about anything and beaten. (proven again when the Ausmonauts ran Elites using Mirandas, which are Tier 1.)

Point being, when people bring up PvP in these discussions, it's because it IS a test of a ship's abilities-human players do things the AI can't, and they do them a LOT.

(and anyone who says you can beat all PvP in a team of 'scorts hasn't hit a good PUG on the other side yet, much less a coordinated team. there IS a place for the Cruiser/Battlecruiser in PvP play, esp. with the upcoming changes to how Emergency Power to Shields works, making having that hull to hull-tank with pretty darn useful...)

The Bort/Dready are both Tier 5 ships, top of the heap theoretically, and the Bort, at least, needs to outperform ships that cost significantly LESS, given the $25 for a single copy or $50 for a three pack vs. $20 for four Fleet modules from your T3 Starbase (the price and entry for a Tor'Kaht.)

Pros: the Bort has the highest DPS of any cruiser, EVER.
Cons: The Bort has a turnrate/inertia rating that makes that firepower extremely difficult to bring to bear on a manuevering, as opposed to scripted, target.


a LOT of STF heroes hit their first PvP match, and go "WTF?? HAX!!!" because they're accustomed to/used to being the on the team that makes use of their abilities against an opposition that may have obscene hull and shields, but doesn't manuever,fight, or use buffs/debuffs with any kind of intelligence.

The Jem'Dread has stats very close to the Bort, which (along with the pricetag) makes it almost a fair comparison-almost, because the JemDread has the ability to put steel on target thanks to its' use of hangar pets with significant firepower and shorter respawn times (and the ability to COMMAND those pets. Bort lacks the carrier command set on its single Hoh'sus pet. instead you're at teh mercy of the AI...)

Jem'Dread Pro: Hangar pets allow faster response time and the ability to apply damage more easily than the Bortasque.

Jem'Dread Con: less tanky than the Bortasque.



In matches where your opposition is working unscripted, the ability to apply damage to a target and manage your own buff cycle is more important than higher potential damage gained with a lucky shot. The reason the Bort takes flak isn't the Dread, though-it's the other, better, cheaper Battlecruisers already in the KDF inventory that don't cost fifty bucks, and have little difficulty getting their firepower on-target or getting out of a situation that would leave a Bort stranded and mired before it blows up.

Anyone that's solo'ed a cube in a Sci ship (fedside) or Raptor, or Vor'cha (using the FREE KDF ships) knows that hull and shield strength are only PART of the issue-and a part that can be overcome-esp. when the target can't get out of the line of fire.

The Bort really can't get out from under an opponent's guns.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,220
# 82
04-12-2013, 12:14 PM
Ahhh, here is where we differ.

Getting out from under guns is not tanking, its kiting.

The Bort excels at taking the hit, smiling, going back up to full health, saying can I have another, and doing it again.

Both are effective, but have a different feel.

Pick your poison. I like both, I don't disparage your opinion, I just happen to also like the other.

Edit: And I'm not sure if you are insinuating it can't, but I can easily solo a cube with my bort... and just about any other ship really... They aren't that hard you just have to keep on your toes.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 04-12-2013 at 12:16 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 59
# 83
04-12-2013, 12:21 PM
Bortas vs Bug Dread, I do not know which is better and frankly I do not care. Why because of the poor turn rate. (Mirror)Vo'Quv, Kar'fi and Tholian Recluse are better carrier choices for me, when it comes to poor turn rate, why because of the pets and boff layout. (I did not understand how a battle cruiser and a carrier are compared)

Bortas vs Tor'Kaht or Fleet Negh'Var is a different story.

Bortas suffers from poor turn rate. That 5.5 is a death sentence. As for tanking Bortas has a higher hull, the others better shield modifier, hence no significant difference.

The 2 fleet ships can use effectively DHC due to the turn rate, paired with 1 or 2 RCS consoles, even in PVP.

As for why people do not pvp, pvp requires to optimize your ship to the limit and make it viable. You have to tank better than in pve and you have to output more damage than in pve as well.

I have seen many people pvp in a Bortas but none of them used DHC, hence they cannot output more damage than someone that uses a DHC Tor'Kaht build. In pve less moving around is required but still if you are more agile your are more efficient, always damage wise.(if it takes more time to turn 180 degrees to face your opponent, your contribution to damage is less than a teammate that has already turned and started firing)

Bortas is not a bad ship, not in pve not in pvp. It needs to equipped and used right. Is it inferior to the Tor'Kaht. Damage wise yes. I cannot say for the fleet Negh'Var because my fleet is not there yet. However, when it available I will try it.

Now for the cost. Bortas costs only 500 zen more than the Fleet Version of the aforementioned Battle Cruisers. What you get for that is simple a fancy console with a long cool down. The Disruptor Autocannon might be great console, but if you slot all 3 you loose either armor consoles or tactical consoles. Hence, on the big picture you lose more than it is offered.

Personally I was thinking of buying a Bortas(3 pack), but then I decided that it better to spend 100m EC for a Galor if I have to use beams.
Fed Sci: Tethys U.S.S. Chronos Aionios, U.S.S. Denomon Gnosis {Fleet: HSF}
KDF Eng: Boreas I.K.S. Demonon Nemesis {Fleet: HoS}
Rom Sci: Crius I.R.W. Noctem Aeternus {Fleet: LoS}
Fed Tac: Kronos U.S.S. Xibalba, I.S.S. Theogonia{Fleet: HSF}

Last edited by kronosath; 04-12-2013 at 12:23 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,220
# 84
04-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Sadly I have to agree, the consoles other then the autocannon... kinda meh.

Honestly, most special consoles... kinda meh. Some gems for sure, but mostly they are fun toys.

The snare is good sometimes, too, tho replacing it with a jump instead, better.

The only good part in the 3pc is it lowering the cooldown on the autocannon... not worth 2 consoles IMO.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,734
# 85
04-12-2013, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
Ahhh, here is where we differ.

Getting out from under guns is not tanking, its kiting.

The Bort excels at taking the hit, smiling, going back up to full health, saying can I have another, and doing it again.

Both are effective, but have a different feel.

Pick your poison. I like both, I don't disparage your opinion, I just happen to also like the other.

Edit: And I'm not sure if you are insinuating it can't, but I can easily solo a cube with my bort... and just about any other ship really... They aren't that hard you just have to keep on your toes.
I wasn't insinuating you couldn't solo a cube with a Bort-that would be an idiotic statement-the Bort has the best DPS of any cruiser, plus that big, honkin' cannon console.

ie it BETTER be able to solo a cube-but that is, at Tier 5, a "Minimum requirement for any ship at this Tier." i.e. I solo Cubes in a Fleet Norgh with Polaron weaponry and NO torp or mine mounts. The point on Cubes is that they have obscenely high hit-points and shield points, it takes a lot of damage to do them, and more to do them quickly-but because they are immobile, and don't 'play their ship' they can be taken down by ships at Tier 3, or 4, not just 5, and unlike the Bort, a Cube has a 360 degree firing arc with its heavy weapons-a Bort has about 45 degrees firing arc (DHC+console cannon) for ITS heavy weapons, and a turn rate of a whopping 5.

Meaning that a manueverable opponent can cut engine power (lower their defense score) and STILL stay in your weak arc, out of reach of your main guns, making that high potential DPS pretty much useless-this doesn't happen in PvE very often because the AI is scripted and kind of a moron, but against players, it's pretty much "How you kill a cruiser/Battlecruiser".

The problem of the Bort, is that it's got lots of hull, lots of firepower, some nifty, 3 minute cooldown tricks, but it can't make best use of what it has because it has a terrible turn rate and accelleration curve, and to GET the highest DPS numbers it has to use weapons that have a narrow firing arc that requires turn-rate to apply against anything NOT scripted.

Turn rate it really does NOT have, but cheaper ships that are nearly as tough DO have.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,734
# 86
04-12-2013, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronosath View Post
Bortas vs Bug Dread, I do not know which is better and frankly I do not care. Why because of the poor turn rate. (Mirror)Vo'Quv, Kar'fi and Tholian Recluse are better carrier choices for me, when it comes to poor turn rate, why because of the pets and boff layout. (I did not understand how a battle cruiser and a carrier are compared)

Bortas vs Tor'Kaht or Fleet Negh'Var is a different story.

Bortas suffers from poor turn rate. That 5.5 is a death sentence. As for tanking Bortas has a higher hull, the others better shield modifier, hence no significant difference.

The 2 fleet ships can use effectively DHC due to the turn rate, paired with 1 or 2 RCS consoles, even in PVP.

As for why people do not pvp, pvp requires to optimize your ship to the limit and make it viable. You have to tank better than in pve and you have to output more damage than in pve as well.

I have seen many people pvp in a Bortas but none of them used DHC, hence they cannot output more damage than someone that uses a DHC Tor'Kaht build. In pve less moving around is required but still if you are more agile your are more efficient, always damage wise.(if it takes more time to turn 180 degrees to face your opponent, your contribution to damage is less than a teammate that has already turned and started firing)

Bortas is not a bad ship, not in pve not in pvp. It needs to equipped and used right. Is it inferior to the Tor'Kaht. Damage wise yes. I cannot say for the fleet Negh'Var because my fleet is not there yet. However, when it available I will try it.

Now for the cost. Bortas costs only 500 zen more than the Fleet Version of the aforementioned Battle Cruisers. What you get for that is simple a fancy console with a long cool down. The Disruptor Autocannon might be great console, but if you slot all 3 you loose either armor consoles or tactical consoles. Hence, on the big picture you lose more than it is offered.

Personally I was thinking of buying a Bortas(3 pack), but then I decided that it better to spend 100m EC for a Galor if I have to use beams.
Cost math for an LTS:
stipend for an LTS is 500 zen a month.

Price of a Fleet Module: 500 Zen per.

where this matters?

Bortasque (Single ship version): 2500 zen
Fleet Tor'Khat: 4 FM or 2000 zen from a fleet with a T3 shipyard.

at 500 zen/month stipend:

4 months to a Fleet Tor'khat.
5 months to a single-model Bortasque.

10 months for the Bort 3-pack.

What you get for your value:

A Tor'Kaht can do STF, PVE content, and is effective at PVP, and can just about almost match the Bort's DPS in both event types.

The Bort gets a big, honkin' gun, high POTENTIAL DPS, Higher hull, but sacrifices everything for high hull and its high potential (not actual, think "net" vs. "gross" values here) DPS, especially it sacrifices turn rate, which is necessary because of the firing arcs for it's main gun in a DPS configuration.

I, too have seen Borts that were effective (or at least, not a crippling liability) in PvP matches-though the ones I've mostly seen were using mixed single cannon/beam/torp layouts and at least ONE that was a single-cannons build similar to some of the "DPS Cruiser" advice threads you see in PvP and Fedside, where you see builds running DBB and Single cannons forward, and Turrets aft. BUT...

They're not as effective as a Vorcha-R or Tor'Kaht in the role, and it goes straight to that turn rate issue as to 'why' they aren't.

Now, mind you, if I pug an Arena, and there's a Bortasque on the team, I know what my mission is:

Cover his flanks.

Because fedScorts WILL try to get into a Bort's rear, and it's JUST tough enough that when they do, they usually have their OWN rears to me (and to stay on their target, they're usually running low on the engine power to avoid overshooting). A Decloak-Alpha from a BoP running disruptors with the right combos is very useful for keeping my big buddy alive to wrestle his way to a targeting solution.

it's jsut that, see, I run Raiders by preference, and Escort is a Raptor job.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Last edited by patrickngo; 04-12-2013 at 12:54 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,052
# 87
04-12-2013, 02:44 PM
Hrmmm, yeah - if the "tanking" thing means sitting there and just taking it - the Bort would have the edge with possible BOFF layout, the +10 Shield Power, and initial ~4k base hull more. If you add movement into it (which I'm not sure why you wouldn't), the additional avoidance (avoidance > mitigation: avoidance = 100% mitigation), the ability to deliver more damage, etc, etc, etc - would put the Tor ahead.

As for the K'Maj (Fleet Kamarag Retro) - yeah, that's definitely on the radar - the Kamarag's a blast to fly compared to the Vor'cha Retro/Mirror Vor'cha.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 88
04-12-2013, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
/lol PvP

Saying a ship is useless because its not good for PvP is really stacking the deck. Damn near 90% of the game is not good for PvP. Most people don't PvP, either. Hell she could be a total waste in PvP. Me and most of the population really don't care. Most ships, gear, and setup are a total waste in PvP. Saying something is bad for PvP is like saying the sky is blue.

If you want a PvP ship, maybe look at the PvP forums... with the handful of people who honestly care about PvP.
OK gonna try to keep it civil. It's larger than a handful of people who care about PvP. It's anybody who likes a challenge. PvE content is like tying your shoes. After the learning curve it's routine. But that's neither here nor there. What is relevant to this discussion, and this thread, is PvP because that's what the OP brought up and made claims about.

You've made multiple posts now which have opinions on the role of the Bort, that it's better than other ships in specific ways. Please support your assertions with example builds, math, parses, etc. Thanks.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 89
04-12-2013, 10:00 PM
Here's a little fact, there isn't a single ship in the game that can out DPS a Bort Tactical Cruiser with all 3 mods + 5 weapon energy boosters.

Ask me how this is fact.

Because the ship description compared to even a Fed Escort, or Kling BoP, factored in with the +12 Energy Weapons Specialization, And the Accuracy Buff.

You'll soon figure out fast why it's the highest DPS ship in the game for a Tac. Add that to a Rom Bridge Officer, and cloak alpha. There isn't a single ship in this entire game that can out DPS the Bort Tactical Cruiser with the 5 Tactical Console Slots, and everything else on it.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 392
# 90
04-12-2013, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Cost math for an LTS:
stipend for an LTS is 500 zen a month.

Price of a Fleet Module: 500 Zen per.

where this matters?

Bortasque (Single ship version): 2500 zen
Fleet Tor'Khat: 4 FM or 2000 zen from a fleet with a T3 shipyard.

at 500 zen/month stipend:

4 months to a Fleet Tor'khat.
5 months to a single-model Bortasque.

10 months for the Bort 3-pack.

What you get for your value:

A Tor'Kaht can do STF, PVE content, and is effective at PVP, and can just about almost match the Bort's DPS in both event types.

The Bort gets a big, honkin' gun, high POTENTIAL DPS, Higher hull, but sacrifices everything for high hull and its high potential (not actual, think "net" vs. "gross" values here) DPS, especially it sacrifices turn rate, which is necessary because of the firing arcs for it's main gun in a DPS configuration.

I, too have seen Borts that were effective (or at least, not a crippling liability) in PvP matches-though the ones I've mostly seen were using mixed single cannon/beam/torp layouts and at least ONE that was a single-cannons build similar to some of the "DPS Cruiser" advice threads you see in PvP and Fedside, where you see builds running DBB and Single cannons forward, and Turrets aft. BUT...

They're not as effective as a Vorcha-R or Tor'Kaht in the role, and it goes straight to that turn rate issue as to 'why' they aren't.

Now, mind you, if I pug an Arena, and there's a Bortasque on the team, I know what my mission is:

Cover his flanks.

Because fedScorts WILL try to get into a Bort's rear, and it's JUST tough enough that when they do, they usually have their OWN rears to me (and to stay on their target, they're usually running low on the engine power to avoid overshooting). A Decloak-Alpha from a BoP running disruptors with the right combos is very useful for keeping my big buddy alive to wrestle his way to a targeting solution.

it's jsut that, see, I run Raiders by preference, and Escort is a Raptor job.
Subspace Snare, and Subspace Jump help dramatically for a bort being ganked by an Escort.
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