Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 388
# 1 Buff instead of Nerfing!
04-10-2013, 04:55 AM
I for one like the so-called "triad" or "trinity" of tac/eng/sci (dps/tank/heal) because people tend to like to fulfill a role while in a team (pug or arranged)... As long as any captain is viable enough to play solo on content, all is good.

I will admit, I never played an engineer or a sci captain, so I will not pretend I know the ins an outs of their talents or skills. From these forums, seems they lack when compared to tac. So why calling for nerfing a good class when we could try to buff the ones in need.

I love a balanced and diverse game with many ways to skill a character... SO let's look for buffs where needed. Alas, I am not one to help much (read: never played them) but I am sure many out there can help in that direction...

Let the buff suggestions begin (here or in any appropriate threads).

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 237
# 2
04-10-2013, 05:01 AM
I don't want the entire tac class nerfed. I want some balance.

Adding an ability to science for perception to see the perfectly cloaked tac on the ground is a huge step in the right direction. I'm a medic on the ground and pretty good, or at least my fleet likes to lead me to believe. But there is no buff in the game that can protect you from a cloaked tac walking right up on you and shoving a pulse wave up your butt and pulling the trigger and making you little itty bits of nothing.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 3
04-10-2013, 05:40 AM
In PvP a buff to science and engineering captains abilities will inevitably lead to some one calling it a nerf when in reality it is a balancing.

As for PvE the content mostly revolves around killing things the fastest. Which captain is going to do it fastest? Tactical. Which ship regardless of captain will do it the fastest? Escort.

Another thing people are annoyed at is that tacticals will always do more damage with any skill and weapons regardless of it being tactical, science or engineering. That has led to a nerfing of said skills to the point where using it with any other captain is just rubbish.

Solution? Remove tacticals ability to buff all damage, make it weapon damage only and rebalance the skills as needed. Problem is people like you that call it a nerf, it is not to 90% of the player base, it is merely a balance.

I would suggest the OP tries the other classes in something other than an escort and you will start to see the main problem. ACT is a combat parser which can be used to see the difference between the toons.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 37
# 4
04-10-2013, 12:16 PM
OP, seriously. What are you calling for IS a nerf. Minor adjustments are just that, adjustments. When you call for 'levelling the playing field', that smacks of nerf. Something SoE used to do constantly.

My secondary char runs a torp boat Comet with -Th consoles because disrupts and drains will eventually lead to getting any escorts, particularly Vesta/Armitage/Kumari, and heavy hitters like the Kar'Fi/Guramba/Chel Grett, getting sauced IMMEDIATELY after me. Damage wise, yeah it's about 35% less, 25% if you count GW1, TBR1, etc. But the utility makes up for it. Subsystem Targetting, VM3, ES2, need I go on with crippling?

Trust me, if Tacs lost all their damage abilities, you'd see more failing STF's than ever. Particularly ground. Instead, focus on what Eng at: hard to kill monstrosities in most ships, turret and mortar dropping lunatics who toss a cover shield and drop a medical generator for you to recover at, and let's talk about the Enemy Neutralizer kit: ...what Armek/Tosk/Rebecca/Queen? How about Sci captains: disrupting nutcases with no regard for their crew as the words 'Subnucleonic Beam plus Photonic Fleet double plus these nice science abilities and if worst comes to worst, a Ramming Speed that would make Kirk gape in awe = MESSY' are tossed out amidst tin tyrant giggling.

TL;DR? There are few limitations, just the ones inherent in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 147
# 5
04-11-2013, 02:08 AM
Only buffing = power creep
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,160
# 6
04-11-2013, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redshirtthefirst View Post
So why calling for nerfing a good class when we could try to buff the ones in need.
Three Careers...er...that do not fit your listed Trinity.

Multiple types of ships that each of the three Careers can fly.

Multiple gearing, BOFF choice, etc, etc, etc options for each of the actual individual ships.

You can spend 300k in Space skills, grab a ship, gear it, select the BOFFs, and... then drop in a Tac, Eng, or Sci. Each of the Careers will bring 5 innate abilities. Those abilities are what will distinguish the characters. Everything else could be the same. With the CDs on those 5 innate abilities, during any given 15 minute period you're looking at 73% or greater downtime.

Content is designed around reducing Mob X to 0 Health as fast as possible.

Tada. A certain career, with a certain skill build, in certain classes of ships, with certain BOFFs, and certain gear... does that better than the other two careers can with any skill build, in any class of ship, regardless of BOFFs and gear.

In order to bring about parity for Eng and Sci in regard to current content - well, you'd have to change their 5 innate abilities to do what the 5 innate abilities of a Tac. Basically, you'd have to make the Eng and Sci...er...a Tac.

That's the Career aspect. What if we wanted to move beyond that to say Cruiser vs. Escort? Again, with current content - well, you'd have to make the Cruiser and Escort. How about Beams vs. Cannons? Yep make those Beams into Cannons.

That's on the PvE side, eh? Hrmmm, seems like nerfing the Tac in an Escort or buffing anybody else in anything else isn't the best way to handle it...hrmmm, perhaps what is needed is an adjustment to content? YEAH! Er, nope. Then you're forcing folks into playing certain things for certain content (well, outside of shuttles).

Isn't that what is going on now? No, not really. Sure, if you want to finish the ESTF in 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes - you'll roll a certain way. Thing is, you can still get it done regardless in 10 minutes even if you don't roll that way.

So what's the problem? The expectation that it be done in 5 minutes or less? People that couldn't get the job done regardless of what ship they were flying? Yeah...that's the problem.

What about over in PvP? That's an entirely different scenario where the whole package of everything that's going on in STO creates such a cluste...er...um... it's a mess over there. There are just so many variables involved when you consider folks that are attempting to min/max to kill somebody that is attempting to min/max to kill them.

Hrmmm, I need more caffeine...I totally forgot where I was going with any of this...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
# 7
04-11-2013, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxial View Post
When you call for 'levelling the playing field', that smacks of nerf.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of a person makes a serious case for an "unlevel" playing field. Personally, I probably haven't been playing long enough to give serious input, but I started as a tac, got to 50, realized Sci had all the cool abilities, and haven't looked back. There's more to the game than DPS and in my opinion, firing the most the fastest just gets kind of boring after a while. I have tons of crowd control and heals that means I can last longer against multiple ships whereas a tac escort would get blown to bits. But that's fine. It's balanced because I have utility, they have firepower. Who cares? Why are we arguing? lol
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 789
# 8
04-11-2013, 11:24 AM
[quote=virusdancer;9164811
Content is designed around reducing Mob X to 0 Health as fast as possible.

Tada. A certain career, with a certain skill build, in certain classes of ships, with certain BOFFs, and certain gear... does that better than the other two careers can with any skill build, in any class of ship, regardless of BOFFs and gear.

In order to bring about parity for Eng and Sci in regard to current content - well, you'd have to change their 5 innate abilities to do what the 5 innate abilities of a Tac. Basically, you'd have to make the Eng and Sci...er...a Tac.

That's the Career aspect. What if we wanted to move beyond that to say Cruiser vs. Escort? Again, with current content - well, you'd have to make the Cruiser and Escort. How about Beams vs. Cannons? Yep make those Beams into Cannons.
.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. The engineer/sci buffs and debuffs could be made strong enough that they are equal to the tactical damage buffs. Science attack powers and engineer pets could be made to deal equal damage to a tactical captain.

You could have science ships that killed things not with guns but with science powers, and did so at exactly the same rate as a tactical captain in an escort using dual heavy cannons.

I personally feel this would be going too far into the realm of power creep. But it is possible.

I like that there is variety and a certain combination gives the most damage. However, when that same combo also has upwards of 90% of the survivability of the better tanks, and when there is no need for support roles at all that is a problem. Because then nothing matters except for more damage faster. and only one combo does this.

So either make tanking and supporting (not just heals, but all of i power drain, slow/root, debuffs, placate, confuse, all of it) matter, or give tanks and support tools to do damage, or take away survivability from the damage king. Preferably a little of all of the above rather than BLAM HAMMER OF THE GODS on just one.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 9
04-11-2013, 05:21 PM
As virus pointed out, the current content is about reducing mob X to 0 health fastest. The real problem is the content. There are no reasons to choose to slow down an enemy going to point B over say KERBLAM, SPLAT, Borg on the windshield. In fact the second option is the best because the enemy will be gone allowing you to deal with other enemies.

Another part of the problem is that it something is to be great in PvE (or at least come to 75% of a tacscorts DPS) then it's called OP by the PvP community and 1 patch later it's nerfed into oblivion.

A solution to this would be to modify damage/drain etc numbers between PvP and PvE. Though many people will complain it's too complex to learn the difference *cry*.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,160
# 10
04-11-2013, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Another part of the problem is that it something is to be great in PvE (or at least come to 75% of a tacscorts DPS) then it's called OP by the PvP community and 1 patch later it's nerfed into oblivion.
Hrmmm, I think the PvP crowd gets a bad rep for that - an undue rep at that. The devs have even stated on some of the major "nerfs" that they were made because of PvE.

That's not saying that there aren't certain PvPers that have exploited certain things in PvE and leaked that to others in the PvE community...knowing that it would spread, catch Cryptic's attention, and thus result in changes...

It's kind of funny, because for some of the "nerfs" that the PvP folks get blamed for - well - they're generally unloading six packs of WTFUXXOR at the devs trying to figure out what they did.

PvP complaint threads tend to be very detail orientated - supporting information from various scenarios - suggested possible resolutions including the effects they may have elsewhere...etc, etc, etc.

Something gets "nerfed" - you look at the "nerf" - go back to the PvP complaint thread and...yeah, you'll be cracking open a can of WTFUXXOR right along side them trying to figure out what the devs were thinking...meh.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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