Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
Devs,

Here's a suggestion that can make these changes not be 100% biased towards escorts while at the same time nailing the coffin on cruisers and science ships (current tribble changes literally up escort damage 400% while making sci/cruiser shields be completely vulnerable for 10 seconds guaranteed).


The solution: Have every Emg2X ability impart two 'buffs' when clicked rather than a 'universal' one.


Emergency to Weapons:

Imparts one beam weapon buff and one cannon weapon buff. Cannon buff has damage bonus last 5 seconds with a +5% damage bonus over the current amount. Beam weapon bonus is the 20 seconds damage buff.

Result: Beam weaponry receives the most bonus from this ability and it can bring beams into functional parity with the heavier dual cannons. Parity meaning that while the cannons retain their high damage as a spike damage hit, the beams now are able to be good at delivering good damage over time. Spike Vs Over-Time parity.

Yes, a ship with cannons and beams equipped receives the bonuses for both weapons.

Emergency to Engines:

This ability gives the ship its bonus based on hull type. If escort it provides a large power boost to engine power with a small boost in speed. If science ship, cruiser or carrier it provides a large turn rate boost with a small engine power boost and a decent speed boost.

Result: Escorts get their bonus speed without being a direct boost which would insanely increase their defense rating. Increased engine power would then provide a speed boost that is dependent on the captain's skill points in impulse and engine boxes. Sci,Cruisers and Carriers get turn rate bonus which is a godsend to them along with a decent increase in speed for the 20 second duration. Their defense is not boosted but they can now turn decently for a short time... very much like an excelsior using aux2dampeners now.

Emergency to Aux:

Sci and Cruiser would get a timer reduction to over-time healing abilities like hazard and transfer shield strength and extend shields...and escorts should receive a reduction in weapon power cost (weapon power resistance I think is the effect?) during those 20 seconds. I'm thinking if emg2wep 2 is used the dual heavy cannon power cost would go from 12 down to 9 type of reduction.

Emergency to Shields:

Should be hull based buff as well and should impart 2 different buffs per hull type.

Escorts receive a 20 second duration large buff to shield resists and reduces shield bleedthrough by 2% per tier. Aka tier Emg to Shields 2= 4% bleedthrough reduction. No shield regen bonus.

Sci ships and cruisers receive a 30 second duration very large buff to shield regen rate and a large buff to shield resists.

All hull types receive = power bonus to shield power.

This makes escorts able to 'toughen up' before an attack run but do not have shield healing power imparted by the ability..instead their shield bleedthrough is decreased. Sci ships and cruisers receive a generous bonus to shield regeneration rate and to shield resists for longer duration which enables them to tank for a change.

I would also like to ask a new emergency power to- ability be added:

Emergency Power to Deflector

This power does what the devs originally intended the emg2aux do: It grants direct bonus to stats.

For sci ships and cruisers it would increase graviton/particle/subspace decompiler/countermeasures/sensor/flow capacitor skill and reduce the timer on abilities that use those stats.

For escorts, the emg 2 deflector should give a bonus to targeting, stealth, sensors and subspace decompiler and reduce the timer

Result: Sci and escorts up their tanking and hull-type role defining stats and escorts receive bonuses to their own role-definining abilities without it being a direct increase in damage.. both ships receive bonus to their utility skills.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg

Last edited by cmdrskyfaller; 04-12-2013 at 07:40 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,774
# 122
04-12-2013, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
Here is the bottom line.

Engineers in cruisers have had to beat their head against a wall trying to be damage dealers in pvp. Most people who have stuck with Eng cruisers long enough have finally accepted the role that they are only ever going to be tank healers. Now that we have accepted that, you take away our ability to be tanks, which gets us killed, which makes unable to heal.

The deterrent of a cruiser to keep an escort away was not the cruisers ability to do damage or hold or repel them, but to make them have to waste their time trying to kill us, thus exposing them to attack. Now it is no longer a waste of time as a cruiser can be brought down quite effortlessly inside a 10 second window.

I indeed have gone to tribble and tested this in a group pvp setting. The change seemed negligible at first, until it took people roughly 5 minutes to realize they just needed to time their strikes in that gap and pop, no more cruiser. Even myself trying to time my RSF, TSS2, BFI and SFM in those gaps was not nearly enough to offset the loss of shield power level resist and EPtS3.

So if you take away the role you have pigeon-holed us into, so now what the hell are we supposed to do
exactly?

If you are going to keep this change, then you seriously need to nerf DHC or fix beam damage or something. Because this, this is the final nail in the coffin for cruisers with eng captains.
so what your saying is EXACTLY what ive been claiming would happen since the patch is EXACTLY what happens in practice? im shocked. cruisers completely ruined, and escorts just have to time their 10 second alpha with the 10 second gap? surviving your typical good alpha thats hits you out of no were already had narrow margins at 50% res. that getting cut in half to only about 25% means your taking double the damage to shields, of course your going die, its like getting subnuked every 20 seconds.


since this is the thread they are apparently watching, here is how you fix these powers for every ship and captain type

1. this 20 second nonsense ends. drop 'emergency' from the name if its that big a deal. keep all the new changes to the other EPt skills, except...

2. new EPtE on an escort is overpowered. that speed buff makes them far to zipy and good at damage avoidance. already with how it is on holodeck, their ability to use EPtE and speed tank works as good if not better then slow movers just normal tanking. this skill should just boost engine power, and increase turn rate a flat amount, like+5/10/15 across the grades so it benefits slow turners, not just already fast turners

3. cruisers with their energy sucking weapons need EPtW's power boost to deal with the drain, escorts with DHC almost have no issue with power drain. for a cruiser EPtW is actually nerfed with that 10 seconds with no boosted power, wile an escort 20 seconds is more then enough time. this is just echoing point 1, but theres more then just EPtS that needs to be 30 seconds, ALL of them need to stay at 30 seconds.


here's were further balance steps need to be taken, not necessarily having to do with EPt skills

4. cut the magnitude of the res boost on EPtS in half. also remove the resA/B mods from fleet shields and replace them with cap mods. EPtS3 and an elite shields with the right energy type shooting it hits the resistance hard cap, thats absurd

5 nerf DHCs so they are not so front loaded, but operate more like DCs with a constant stream of high pressure damage. maybe make them 3 cycle instead of 2? that might not seem like it would make that big a difference, but trust me it absolutly would. at the same time lower TT's shield distribute, and clear to 5 seconds.



the result is spike and healing and resistance levels are nerfed, both are completely over the top right now wile pressure deals a net of 0 damage. this cuts into the extremes considerably, and unmarginalizes everything that has currently been made useless.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 123
04-12-2013, 04:29 PM
It was even more fun with a defiant in the mix. I cannot imagine how much bops are gonna love this. Now they can be tacs again AND have a sub nuke every 20 seconds!

IF the reason for this change was to make escorts less tanky to give cruisers a chance against them, you have failed. Escorts remain just as unkillable for a cruiser as they ever were. Even one on one an escort can now mitigate the crappy damage from anything that is not a DHC, while I have lost the ability to tank even ONE target.

IF the reason for this change was to entice me to use other eptx abilities, you have failed. Cruiser were already cycling 2 different abilities. To add in more would not only not be practical, it would cut into my ability to heal my team. There is absolutely no way I could ever afford to drop epts3, so then I would have to drop eptw then? Yes and cut into my already easily mitigated damage. All for what epte? Lol. Not only can we not do damage, now we can't tank, but at least I can slot powers for running away! Thanks. Insult to injury, great.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 124
04-12-2013, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Emergency Power-class abilities:

The shared cooldown between two Emergency Power-type abilities of the same type has been reduced from 30 seconds down to 20 seconds.
*facepalm*

Great. This means one of two things:

1.) What I can do with 2 officer slots costs me 3 slots. Which means instead of most of my cruiser needing to be emergency power abilities, now all of my cruiser will need be emergency power abilities.

2.) It will be impossible to run both EPTS and EPTW chains (it doesn't mention the system cooldown being reduced to the necessary 10 seconds), meaning you either give up the notion of survivability to keep your firepower, or give up the notion of firepower to keep your survivability. I suppose with the KHG set you could become a torpedo boat...

Gotta tell you, between this and whatever the F is glitched on my Fed engineer character, my enthusiasm for this game is suffering.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 125
04-12-2013, 04:36 PM
nm, patch notes.

Thanks all, now another ability I have to mash more often. I'm so excited. Blah.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.

Last edited by bareel; 04-12-2013 at 04:50 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 126
04-12-2013, 05:56 PM
I'm not an active tribble player, but this is significant enough for me to need to underscore the fact that this overhaul of emergency powers is a bad idea.

You don't even need to go to PVP to see why. In a massive pitched engagement like Starbase 24 or starbase defense, or when taking fire from a single tough enemy in elite-STF, a ship that is too slow to run away cannot be left with gaps in their protection. Cruisers and carriers are forced by the reality of their poor mobility to absorb fire, and constant protection from EPTS is the only thing that makes this practical when taking sustained, or massive, damage.

If you implement this change, engineering ships are going to be put at a massive disadvantage in the only area they currently excel at.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 127
04-12-2013, 06:24 PM
So I posted a similar message in another thread about this. From what I read from the thread in the PVP forums, apparently the global CD on the same type of emergency power is 20 seconds and the CD of different one is 15 seconds as soon as you use any Emergency power.

So doesn't that mean that if you want to run EPtS 100% of the time, then you don't have a chance to use another EPtX at all?
Vice-Chancellor of Federation Fleet Directive 010

DISENCHANTED
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,249
# 128
04-12-2013, 07:10 PM
As if beamboats didn't have enough problems, now the standard dual EPTS / dual EPTW setup is a no-go. And single Aux2Bat builds just got wrecked. Are they specifically trying to screw cruisers? (Probably a rhetorical question).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,159
# 129
04-12-2013, 08:26 PM
The op suggestion could be better then the current situation on tribble, but what I would prefer is just leaving things as it is right now. But I don't think there is a way to make boff abilites affect ship classes differently.

What is so wrong with all EPTX having 30 second uptime, 45 sec cooldown, 15 sec global cooldown and 30 second global cd between identical EPTX. The system is fine as it is, the only change that hsould happen is the energy damage boost lasting longer then 5 secs for EPTW.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
# 130
04-12-2013, 09:40 PM
Dropping the CD of EPtS to 20s without making any other changes has two significant consequences which may not be intended:

1) Leaving the system cooldown at 15s means that it will no longer be possible to keep two different EPtX abilities up at the same time, overlapping. Previously the following rotation was possible (using EPtW as an example):

0s - activate EPtS
15s - 15s system CD complete, activate EPtW
30s - 15s system CD and 30s power CD for EPtS complete, EPtS expires, activate EPtS
45s - 15s system CD and 30s power CD for EPtW complete, EPtW expires, activate EPtW
60s - etc

That rhythm is thrown off by the change.

0s - activate EPtS
15s - 15s system CD complete, activate EPtW
20s - 20s power CD for EPtS complete, EPtS expires, but system CD is not complete
(10 second gap without EPtS active)
30s - 15s system CD complete, can now activate EPtS
35s - 20s power CD for EPtW complete, EPtW expires, but system CD is not complete
(10 second gap without EPtW active)
45s - 15s system CD complete, can now activate EPtW

Two copies of the same power will be continuously sustainable, but trying to fit in copies of different EPtX powers will be awkward.

2) By reducing the power CD to 20s, EPtS can be used 1.5x as often as previously. That is, in one minute you will be able to use EPtS 3 times, where previously you could use it twice. This means there will be 1.5x as much shield healing from EPtS on every ship running two copies. Is that desirable?
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