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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 231
# 261
04-23-2013, 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
All ships are to an extent self-reliant, the Engineer as a class is designed to have more mitigation that one player could possibly require at a cost of lower damage and utility.

The engineer is pretty clearly a Tank, and building one and not tanking means you are not 'self reliant' because it's very likely your Tacs and Sci's are taking the brunt of incoming damage, while also dealing more damage than you.


That's a drain, that's not self reliance.

This is just nit-picking, but cycling EP2S III is as good of tanking as you really need, making Rotate just about useless in most instances. True, it'll give you a one-off buff, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that engineer powers magically make them wonderful at tanking. The things that matter most for tanking are skills, ship, and then class. While damage requires a tac captain to get the most out of it, tanking can be done sufficiently well enough without an engineer captain at the helm. Sad, but true.

If allied scis/tacs are taking the brunt of damage, it's because whoever was deemed the tank doesn't have enough threat generation. But, as you say that most ships are self-reliant, and those other classes are dealing more damage than the engineer captain....why bother spec'ing into being a tank as an engineer, apart from ship-choice?

In that case, the drain comes from improper balance, not due to someone deciding they don't like being told that, since they chose engineer, that they have to have 9 points into a certain skill, fly a certain ship, and kiss ass to the tac officers to kill things.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 262
04-23-2013, 05:44 PM
In PVE,

Threat generation is self-defeating. Sorry. "I don't do any damage, so I need to invest resources into making fake damage so enemies will pay attention to me." What? If you're not doing any damage, then invest into things that give you more damage. You don't need the threat generation. Tanking is also self-defeating. You invest into defense more than attack, so battles take longer, and then you need more defense because you take more damage in the longer fights, so you invest more into defense..the logical conclusion, the perfect tank, is a useless creature that can't do anything besides being unkillable.

In real gameplay the ship that is useful to the team, fun to play, and suitable for all content types can do damage, stay alive, and heal its allies as the situation demands.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 263
04-23-2013, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I really don't want to be playing a star trek themed wow/other fantasy mmo with the tank that can't do any damage but all their abilities have a +threat to keep attention... laaaaame. I'd much rather them rebalance the mechanic so that ships work the way they should. Cruisers should have the outright highest hull and shields and damage output. The drawback being that they are so slow and lack maneuverability that they can't avoid damage or quickly maneuver to take advantage of an enemy's weak shield facing, for example.

Escorts are so fast and maneuverable, and perhaps could even be made more so, that they don't need the highest damage to be effective, they could have lower damage and use their speed and maneuverability to take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. That's how an escort is supposed to do their damage and be super effective, they stay out of the enemy's kill zones while targeting a weak facing. They aren't supposed to have the ultimate highest uber damage. How did the defiant win against a negvar? It stayed really close to the ship and maneuvered so that the neg var couldn't get a clear shot all the while continuing to do damage.

Science ships should be a kind of hybrid as it has greater speed and maneuverability than a cruiser to avoid damage and take advantage of weaknesses, they have advanced shields so they can take a hit better than an escort, plus they have all their science tricks.

If the game were rebalanced this way, cruisers would hold agro by virtue of actually technically doing the most damage, but that doesn't prevent escorts from being super useful. If a tac cube was distributing its shields to withstand the cruiser, an escort could zip around to the other side and blast the weak facing. The cruiser would hold agro because it's technically doing more damage, but most of that is getting taken up by shields, the escort would be the one on the other side doing more damage to the hull. Of course, this would work best if they changed shield mechanics so that the integrity of a shield facing also modifies bleed through.

The current shield mechanic has it so that essentially, as long as you have points in a shield, only 5-10% of damage is bleeding through. And a "weak facing" is really only weak to a burst of damage. If they switched it so that 100% in a shield facing was 10% bleed 75% in a facing is 15% bleed, 50% in a facing is 20% bleed, and 25% is perhaps a sharper drop to 30% bleed, a "weak facing" wouldn't just be weak to burst damage, but would be weak to damage in general. I think this mechanic would also be interesting as your shields would stay at least partially up more than with the current mechanic as the lower the integrity, the less damage the shield absorbs while letting more pass.

That may be too complex for them to program in, but I think it would allow escorts to have a greater advantage to their speed and maneuverability rather than giving them both the highest speed and maneuverability and the absolute highest damage.

But then I've gone off topic again >> But I don't really know what more to say about the emergency power abilities than what has already been said. It seems the sentiment everyone has is basically keep the new buffs allowing emergency power to weapons, engines, and auxiliary to be more comparable to emergency power to shields, but keep the current cool/uptime mechanics instead of screwing that over. Unless of course, they want to turn them into toggles so we don't have to be bothered by constantly clicking them, lol. In which case they could switch emergency power to shield's heal into a "heal over time" or every 30 seconds it could just pop the heal it has now... whichever. I'm all for toggles, less "click and mash" more keeping eyes on the battle field, strategizing, maneuvering. If they turned the emergency powers into toggles that one could have a maximum of two up at a time... perhaps cruisers with their larger power plant have a passive on them that allows them to have two emergency powers up while other ships can only have one up, that would be great. But I'd also like "cannon rapid fire" and "cannon scatter volley" to be toggled modes of fire you can switch between depending on circumstance. Same with "beam focus fire" (which doesn't exist) and "beam fire at will" and attack patterns, etc. I'd much rather have 15+ activateable passives where the strategy/dynamics come from switching between them based on the situation than 15+ powers/attacks I must constantly mash. We're flying starships, not mages with tons of spells.
Interesting write up. I like it for the most part. I don't see it happening for the LOR launch though, even if Cryptic did go with the general concepts presented.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,078
# 264
04-23-2013, 05:55 PM
true the main thing i was trying to do was think of skills to put in the now useless engineer ensign slots. as it is i am still trying to figure out what to actually use now that EPTx and EPTy dual chaining is more or less suicide now with the gap in coverage and i refuse to use a aux to bat build as i just do not like the idea of loosing the aux power for my team heals

personally in most PVE even with no points in threat control i still pull aggro from most pugs and when i don't i keep the guy they are shooting at alive as long as i can
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 265
04-23-2013, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpgtx View Post
true the main thing i was trying to do was think of skills to put in the now useless engineer ensign slots. as it is i am still trying to figure out what to actually use now that EPTx and EPTy dual chaining is more or less suicide now with the gap in coverage and i refuse to use a aux to bat build as i just do not like the idea of loosing the aux power for my team heals

personally in most PVE even with no points in threat control i still pull aggro from most pugs and when i don't i keep the guy they are shooting at alive as long as i can
I'm not even really sure why aux to bat kills your aux power. Aux to structrual doesn't pull all the power out of aux to create the heal, I don't think aux to dampers does that to do what it does either. And since an aux to bat build prevents you from using any of the other aux to X skills effectively, the least it could do is leave aux alone so you could have a decent hazard emitter... I just don't think it would be that OP, or perhaps OP at all considering the state of cruisers, for aux to bat to not drain aux.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 147
# 266
04-23-2013, 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I'm not even really sure why aux to bat kills your aux power. Aux to structrual doesn't pull all the power out of aux to create the heal, I don't think aux to dampers does that to do what it does either. And since an aux to bat build prevents you from using any of the other aux to X skills effectively, the least it could do is leave aux alone so you could have a decent hazard emitter... I just don't think it would be that OP, or perhaps OP at all considering the state of cruisers, for aux to bat to not drain aux.
Aux to Bat drains Aux because it boosts all your other power levels. If it didn't that would be a pretty imba "Emergency Power to Everything".

Aux to Bat is currently a very viable build because Technician Doffs reduce the cooldown of all bridge officer ability by 10%. You can read up on the topic if you have time.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 267
04-23-2013, 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by myrddin2010 View Post
Is it just me, or have they changed EPtS so that the power bonus is 20 sec, but the resist bonus is still 30 sec? That seems to be at least some improvement...
With all the changes they've made, I'm not even sure anymore - though I did notice that timer doing something along those lines when I was trying to test it on Tribble. It's a little hard to tell what's "working as intended" and what's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myrddin2010 View Post
Also, sort of a dumb question, but is there a tooltip of some kind to see your shield resists displayed? Hull resistance is under the Defense tab in the ship UI, but I don't see anything for shields.
So far as I know, no such display exists, unfortunately.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 268
04-23-2013, 07:59 PM
Current Conditions:

EPTS
20 seconds power buff
30 seconds resist buff

EPTW
20 seconds power buff
20 seconds damage buff

Self cooldown 45 seconds
Shared cooldown 20 seconds
System cooldown 15 seconds

Current Status:
EPTx/EPTy chains, and by extension cruisers wanting to use anything other than EPTS1, remain fracked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 102
# 269
04-23-2013, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Cruisers should have the outright highest hull and shields and damage output. The drawback being that they are so slow and lack maneuverability that they can't avoid damage or quickly maneuver to take advantage of an enemy's weak shield facing, for example.

Escorts are so fast and maneuverable, and perhaps could even be made more so, that they don't need the highest damage to be effective, they could have lower damage and use their speed and maneuverability to take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. That's how an escort is supposed to do their damage and be super effective, they stay out of the enemy's kill zones while targeting a weak facing. They aren't supposed to have the ultimate highest uber damage. How did the defiant win against a negvar? It stayed really close to the ship and maneuvered so that the neg var couldn't get a clear shot all the while continuing to do damage.

Science ships should be a kind of hybrid as it has greater speed and maneuverability than a cruiser to avoid damage and take advantage of weaknesses, they have advanced shields so they can take a hit better than an escort, plus they have all their science tricks.

If the game were rebalanced this way, cruisers would hold agro by virtue of actually technically doing the most damage, but that doesn't prevent escorts from being super useful. If a tac cube was distributing its shields to withstand the cruiser, an escort could zip around to the other side and blast the weak facing. The cruiser would hold agro because it's technically doing more damage, but most of that is getting taken up by shields, the escort would be the one on the other side doing more damage to the hull.
Dude, that sounds awesome. And my main's a tac. That would totally make escorts want to actually, y'know, escort a cruiser, and make those escorts much more fun to play in PvE content than the somewhat brick-simple way they tend to run right now (that's one reason I'm not currently flying one).
And as for PvP (which I am admittedly rather unqualified to speak on, but why let that stop me now? :P), I can totally see this turning Tactical Team from the current always-use-this power to something which an escort is actively encouraged to exploit.
Also, to make this paradigm work, the tweaks to damage and baseline stats it would require could also make this whole EPtS-chaining-as-a-required-tactic problem a little outmoded, were it to come to pass...

... I can dream, can't I?
--- --- --- --- ---
I don't have numbers-- I have research, conjecture, and feedback.
Thank you for yours.
--- --- --- --- ---
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 270
04-24-2013, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilbart View Post
Aux to Bat drains Aux because it boosts all your other power levels. If it didn't that would be a pretty imba "Emergency Power to Everything".

Aux to Bat is currently a very viable build because Technician Doffs reduce the cooldown of all bridge officer ability by 10%. You can read up on the topic if you have time.
Yes, I know, but it only lasts 10 seconds and doesn't have any bonus resist or +% energy damage or anything, so I really don't think it would be OP for it to not drain aux. and I am aware of the aux2bat build with technician doffs, I use it on my engineer, which is why I know that when you use aux to bat, it removes aux to structural as an effective heal, takes up two of your engineering powers limiting the other heals you can slot, and basically leaves you with just hazard emitters as a hull heal (as tac team should be near constantly up voiding eng team) so throw the aux to bat cruiser a freaking bone and let them have a decent hazard emitters instead of a super gimped one courtesy of next to no aux power, lol.
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