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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
# 41
04-11-2013, 12:25 AM
Theirs nothing I can say at this point that hasn't been said earlier (and probably better) by others but bare with me a sec. If these changes can be taken at face value then survivability is going down while damage output is going up because, let's face it damage output is king in this game right now.

Without testing it's hard to see if the benefit to EPtW will matter when you take increased percentage and decreased length into consideration. The way it looks to me right now is as another burst increase as the old short percent increase was negligible. Changes to engines and Aux don't seam to be in the debate at the moment so lets not worry about that right now.

Emergency power and survivability are supposed to be the bread and butter of the cruiser classes and engineering captains. In a time when dual cannon damage is so high why lower the ability of these players/ships to counter that? Cruiser damage output is so low and the ships are so slow and difficult to turn, why lower there persistent damage resists? I can understand something would have to be done if everyone was using two EPtS but you are lowering cruisers ability to counter damage. Why lower a tanks ability to tank while giving everyone another stacking damage increase?

Alright I've babbled enough here's some suggestions:

Cruiser innate buffs/abilities
"Improved Emergency power generator"
All Emergency power abilities last 5(10) seconds longer
I could live with a 5sec downtime, 10sec leaves you open for too long.

"Hardened shields"
Improved shield resists relative to current shield power. More then you already get.
or
"Thicker plate"
Improved hull resists relative to current shield power (or a flat bonus like the captain skill)
Would have to be strong enough to make up for shield resist loss. Makes sense that the larger ships would have a thicker hull anyway.

Also something, anything besides Engineering team at the ensign level that wasn't on a shared cooldown.

Okay, I'm done. (drops keyboard and walks away)
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 410
# 42
04-11-2013, 01:03 AM
EPtS having 100% uptime meant that shields essentially had innate 18% damage resistance, at which point why not just bake it in to them inherently, remove 2 engineering boff abilities, and save everyone the trouble of hitting their spacebar? This is a good change because it makes survivability cooldowns actually used when you need survivability, not just used as soon as they come off cooldown. Damage might need some rebalancing to account for this change, but the idea is a good one.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 43
04-11-2013, 02:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Great chanages.

Thanks for having the courage to try it... and I really hope it holds long enough to implement it.
Seconded.

I hope devs take time to fix the warp core tooltips in game and post a comprehensive list of warp core types and modifiers so that we can find a new synergy. I'm sure new warp cores and space traits will compensate the loss of EPTS for eng/cruisers.

If there's no changes to resistances and tanking somewhere, cruisers will be even more immortal, and that's not even funny. I don't feel very challenged in pve or pvp currently, except in c&h when I have 7-8 player ships attacking my galor with a couple of scis trying to make good use of the SNB. And if you have two cruisers with cross-healing... Well, you get the picture. You play in god mode. So, more tanking with traits and warp cores without any nerf in return? No way.

Last edited by diogene0; 04-11-2013 at 02:25 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,001
# 44
04-11-2013, 02:23 AM
I'm going to go out there and say it: I like it. On paper at least, haven't played with it yet.

Yes. I know, I've really done it now, and I don't know what I'm talking about and all that.

However, I think something like this was due for some time now, since people started stacking elite fleet shields, Rep bonuses (boni?) and all the other +shield stuff on top of epts. To be honest, I think the system was fine, until all of these things kicked in. Now, we're looking at the addition of warp cores, maybe even armor slots, trait revamp and potentially more rep bonuses/new gear.

All these things combined, with epts as it was, would likely have been way to powerful.

Of course, these changes will hit some people more than others. And most of the fall-out will be in PvP, as in PvE epts chaining was pretty optional anyway, even in ESTF's. But I think we'll just have to roll with these changes and adapt, and take the coming stuff into account too, plus the fleet/rep stuff already present.

Personally, I think these changes will lead to a combination of shield and hull tanking, rather than the pure shield-meta we've been seeing, lately. 20secs of shield tanking and 10secs of hull tanking should be very doable for a decent cruiser-pilot and a good sci pilot should also have plenty of options to adapt (think PH, TSS or even creative use of TB or ES). Escorts will still be doing speed tanking, business as usual there.

The good thing about these changes to epts is that, since everybody was using it, everybody gets hit. It's a democratic nerf, and one that I feel is justified considering the all other factors involved.

As for the other eptx changes: really like them. Makes them much more viable. Especially curious as to epte, with the flat turn rate buff and all... Might be just what ships with lots of eng slots but low turn rate need.

Also like the looks of epta; hoping it'll put some extra spice into offensive sci powers. Note to devs: take another look at how raising sci skill tree numbers above 100 scale. Between regular skill specs, deflector/console bonuses, the romulan T5 skill and now epta, it'll be very easy to be pushing or surpassing 200 points in these areas - maybe even 300, if stacking all these things. I'm not sure how much +damage that'll grant, but it'd be great to see some nice benefits from serious specialisation into sci-damage powers. Though that'll make it liable to abuse by tac captain-buffs, I suppose. Hmpf. Tricky. Well, just throwing it out there.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,740
# 45
04-11-2013, 02:36 AM
Name one good thing that this brings to tanks who rely on EptS. Name one bad thing that this brings to alpha escorts who rely on TT instead. Now you can see how dire this update is.
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,018
# 46
04-11-2013, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If there's no changes to resistances and tanking somewhere, cruisers will be even more immortal, and that's not even funny.
Possibly, possibly not. However, 20 seconds of the same resistance followed by 10 seconds of absolutely no resistance is definitely not the right direction, since this is the functional equivalent of being subnuked every 20 seconds.

On top of that, this change doesn't improve EPTW...EPTW is actually worse as a result, with the sole exception of those running spike builds, where not much changes. For those who have to do sustained output, having your weapon power go into the terlet for 10 seconds out of 30 significantly worsens your actual damage output by far more than the small boost of EPTW.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,222
# 47
04-11-2013, 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I don't feel very challenged in pve or pvp currently, except in c&h when I have 7-8 player ships attacking my galor with a couple of scis trying to make good use of the SNB. And if you have two cruisers with cross-healing... Well, you get the picture. You play in god mode. So, more tanking with traits and warp cores without any nerf in return? No way.
I hope it's not a case that you're patting yourself on the back from PUG PvP. It's a dangerous path that can brutally bruise the ego. I often travel it. I mean, c'mon - if I can fly a Sci in a Hegh'ta with 4 Sci BOFFs (no TT, no EPtS) and not have to worry about recloaking against 4-5 opponents...um, it's not that I'm doing something right - it's that they're doing so much so wrong. There's a lot of that out there. Heck, many times I'm one of the goobers doing everything wrong he can to make the other guy feel like a champ. It's just the way that goes...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,600
# 48
04-11-2013, 03:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I hope devs take time to fix the warp core tooltips in game and post a comprehensive list of warp core types and modifiers so that we can find a new synergy. I'm sure new warp cores and space traits will compensate the loss of EPTS for eng/cruisers.
Why are you sure about this? What are your numbers? Each unit of shield power only grants 0.28% shield resistance. This implies that +6 shield power will give you +1.68% shield resistance, and +20 shield power will give you +5.6% shield resistance.

Last edited by frtoaster; 04-11-2013 at 04:03 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
# 49
04-11-2013, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
Maybe, they should just add a shield resistance modifier and hull resistance modifier to all ships, with the magnitude depending on ship class.

For shield resistances, the order can be

science vessels > cruisers > escorts

or

cruisers > science vessels > escorts.

For hull resistances, the order should be

cruisers > science vessels > escorts.
Clearly not an escort pilot........
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,600
# 50
04-11-2013, 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chorkswald View Post
Clearly not an escort pilot........
I'm not sure I understand what your position is. Are you saying that the ship class with the highest damage should have equal survivability to the other ship classes?
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