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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 731
Hi everyone,

Background
There's a lot of information that Cryptic does not release (the initial dilithium conversion formula, STF currency conversion formula, lock box ship chances of winning, number of active accounts, etc.). When possible, I try to track it down and release it as a service to the community.

The purpose of this thread is to give people an idea of the costs the fleet holdings (currently just starbase and embassy, and a third holding in development that will release after May 21). It was revealed in January that there are some 16,500 fleets in service and many more being made each day at Earth Spacedock and Qo'noS. A lot of these people making fleets want an active fleet with maxed out holdings, but are totally unaware of the challenges involved -- leading to a lot of people with low tier bases, single digit rosters, and bitter disappointment as well as a stubbornness to merge resources with other fleets in the same situation because they feel they have invested too much already.

My Recommendations
This issue is especially relevant since the May expansion Legacy of Romulus will make Romulans choose to align with the Federation or Klingons and use their bases. Anyone who wants to form a pure Romulan fleet will have to hope everyone picks the same allegiance (which cannot be changed) or make yet two more fleets. My suggestion would be for small Fed and KDF fleets to merge their resources now, and let the lower tier bases be given or sold to Romulan-focused fleets so they at least have a head-start on that.

The Expenses Involved
Now, as for the costs involved. I set out first to look at the absolute minimum a fleet would need to pay in order to maximize their fleet starbase and embassy, using projects geared towards getting the most XP for the least amount of a variety of resources (whether it be fleet marks, dilithium, duty officers, energy credits, etc.). Most of these are mutually exclusive (dilithium-rich projects require few duty officers and vice versa). Upgrade costs are the same no matter what. For convenience and to provide a more realistic idea of typical costs at this page that gives a breakdown by tier and using which projects to calculate the various costs among the currencies.

All values below before discounts applied from advancing the Dilithium Mine holding

The minimum amount to complete the fleet starbase:
  • 907,140 fleet marks
  • 20,535,750 dilithium (plus 2,800,000 for limited time projects)
  • 14,503 duty officers
  • 459,352,750 energy credits (using base costs for commodities)
  • 52,080,000 expertise
  • 112,500 data samples
  • 955 particle traces
  • 165 bridge officer candidates

The minimum amount to complete the fleet embassy:
  • 146,380 fleet marks
  • 8,544,000 dilithium (plus 1,400,000 for limited time projects)
  • 3,640 duty officers
  • 126,698,000 energy credits
  • 29,810,000 expertise
  • 75 particle traces
  • 5,528 embassy provisions

The minimum amount to complete the fleet dilithium mine:
  • 179,410 fleet marks
  • 4,946,500 dilithium (plus 1,600,000 for limited time projects)
  • 5,730 duty officers
  • 133,366,000 energy credits
  • 29,530,000 expertise
  • 75 particle traces
  • 17,627 dilithium mine provisions

Combined this would add up to:
  • 1,232,930 fleet marks
  • 34,026,250 dilithium (plus 5,800,000 for limited time projects)
  • 23,873 duty officers
  • 718,416,750 energy credits
  • 111,420,000 expertise
  • 112,500 data samples
  • 1,105 particle traces
  • 165 bridge officer candidates
  • 5,528 embassy provisions
  • 17,627 dilithium mine provisions

From actual experience, the very first embassies were completed in 3 months and starbases in 10 months.

If you wanted to minimize fleet marks to 1,232,930 you'd have to pay an extra:
  • 21,317 duty officers (starbase), 1,600 duty officers (embassy), 3,175 duty officers (dilithium mine)
  • 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase), 3,023,000 energy credits (embassy), 3,832,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)

If you wanted to minimize dilithium to 34,026,250 (plus 4,000,000 and counting for limited time projects) you'd have to pay an extra:
  • 21,317 duty officers (starbase), 1,600 duty officers (embassy), 3,175 duty officers (dilithium mine)
  • 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase) and 3,012,000 energy credits (embassy), 3,832,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)
  • 3,240,000 expertise (embassy), 3,240,000 expertise (dilithium mine)

If you wanted to minimize energy credits to 718,416,750 (and I'd suggest you use a Ferengi character, a Tuffli freighter, and get access to the embassy commodity console for discounts off this base cost) you'd have to pay an extra:
  • 417,000 fleet marks (starbase), 4,620 fleet marks (embassy), 4,620 fleet marks (dilithium mine)
  • 63,440,000 dilithium (starbase), 500,000 dilithium (embassy), 500,000 dilithium (dilithium mine)
  • 35,453 duty officers (starbase), 2,220 duty officers (embassy), 2,195 duty officers (dilithium mine)
  • 37,460,000 expertise (starbase), 3,460,000 expertise (embassy), 3,460,000 expertise (dilithium mine)

If you wanted to minimize expertise (perhaps because you're trying to solo the base) to 111,420,000 you'd have to pay an extra:
  • 417,000 fleet marks (starbase), 9,054,820 fleet marks (embassy), 76,020 fleet marks (dilithium mine)
  • 500,000 dilithium (embassy), 5,852,000 dilithium (dilithium mine)
  • 35,453 duty offficers (starbase), 6,450 duty officers (embassy), 17,975 duty officers (dilithium mine)
  • 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase), 24,452,000 energy credits (embassy), 104,732,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)

Recent Developments on Fleet Holding Costs

Priority One podcast interviewed executive producer Dan Stahl on April 4, 2013 and he indicated that costs were being re-evaluated and may be going down in the near future. Here is the following transcript, taken from 46:55-47:56:

Quote:
Priority One: You hinted a little bit that there might be some help for small fleets and Azurianstar submitted a question. Can you give us any details on how that's going to be a little different for small fleets on starbase projects?
DStahl: Yeah, we're crunching the numbers right now to figure out how much we can reduce costs on projects across the board. So, that's really what we're going to try to do. We're just going to flat out make it easier. <laughs> And so we...
Priority One: I'm sorry, can you make that answer a little more complicated for me? That wasn't complicated enough. We're going to need some more hedging. You're just going to drop prices?
DStahl: We're just going to drop prices. At least that's what I want to do. I've asked the systems team to do it and really I'm just waiting for their proposal to come back and say okay here's what we're going to do. Once we have the final details we're going to put that out there but really what we're trying to do is we're trying to look at all the work that people have done for small fleets and just say, y'know what, we're just going to make it easier.
In June it was revealed that each tier of the Dilithium Mine will have a total discount of 4, 9, and 15 percent on all fleet holdings. The mine will reduce dilithium inputs, trade will reduce items (commodities, doffs, consumables, etc.), and development will reduce fleet marks. I was interviewed on Priority One episode #132 to discuss my opinions and offer analysis.

Thanks and For More Information
Thanks to everyone who helped get data on the starbase project, embassy project, and dilithium mine project costs. We all knew it was expensive, but we never knew truly how expensive it was when we started. Hopefully this information will allow current and future fleets to use this knowledge in a way that is helpful for everyone involved.
Fleet holding costs | Accolade Points: 18020 (Fed Engineer), 16400 (KDF Tactical)
Subscribe to Accolade thread | Join channel Accolades | Idea: Mail Revamp
New on STOwiki: Spire projects | STO Timeline | Fed-KDF Disparity | upcoming content
Fed Fleet: Section 31 (level 20) | KDF Fleet: Klingon Intelligence (level 20)

Last edited by phyrexianhero; 10-03-2013 at 06:05 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 324
# 2
04-14-2013, 02:36 PM
The crazy number of DOFFs required seem to be the latest chokehold. I hope they slash the numbers for those.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 405
# 3
04-14-2013, 02:45 PM
Awesome work compiling all that. I really hope it does get people to merge smaller fleets instead of saying "this is too much work, I quit this game" like many do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 4
04-14-2013, 02:54 PM
One small flaw, you need to add the additional expenses to buy Medical DOFFs.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,361
# 5
04-14-2013, 03:14 PM
Assuming these numbers are accurate, I guess PWE is laughing all the way to the bank. Take the dilithium cost alone, at current exchange rate it amounts to $20,000. Yes 20K! Jeez Lewis that is more than most people pay for a car! If you add up all the other costs it probably cost $100,000+. That is about 50-60% the cost of an average house. <facepalm>

Oh well, they got to pay for this game somehow.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,184
# 6
04-14-2013, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
Assuming these numbers are accurate, I guess PWE is laughing all the way to the bank. Take the dilithium cost alone, at current exchange rate it amounts to $20,000. Yes 20K! Jeez Lewis that is more than most people pay for a car! If you add up all the other costs it probably cost $100,000+. That is about 50-60% the cost of an average house. <facepalm>

Oh well, they got to pay for this game somehow.
What exchange rates? Since the Fleetbases went live nearly 10 months ago I've made 5 million Dilithium just by myself. That's 1/4 of of the entire Starbase - assuming I had wanted to put it all there.

The only people putting real money into it are the "can't wait, must have it now" group.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 731
# 7
04-14-2013, 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
Assuming these numbers are accurate, I guess PWE is laughing all the way to the bank. Take the dilithium cost alone, at current exchange rate it amounts to $20,000. Yes 20K! Jeez Lewis that is more than most people pay for a car! If you add up all the other costs it probably cost $100,000+. That is about 50-60% the cost of an average house. <facepalm>

Oh well, they got to pay for this game somehow.
The numbers posted by me are accurate, though your exchange rate was off by a decimal point.

If you wanted to get the minimum dilithium needed to max out your starbase and embassy (currently 29,079,750 + 4,000,000 for limited time projects = 33,079,750 dilithium) and currently zen is selling at 104 dil/zen that'd require you to purchase 318,075 zen (and since there are 100 zen for $1.00 USD), this would cost $3,180.75. A considerable sum, made much easier if in a large fleet (split 25-ways it'd be $127 per person, or 500-ways it'd be just $6.37 per person). Keep in mind exchange rates do vary all the time, with historical values ranging between ~396 dil/zen (495 dil/CP) when the exchange went live in December 2011 to around 84 dil/zen in January 2013).

If you didn't want to use zen to get the dilithium, 33 million dilithium would take a single character 4135 days at maximum refining limit, or about 11.3 years. By then, of course, there'd be a host of new holdings that'd be added. Even the special limited time projects at 200,000 dilithium every 2 weeks take 25 days of maximum refining to obtain.
Fleet holding costs | Accolade Points: 18020 (Fed Engineer), 16400 (KDF Tactical)
Subscribe to Accolade thread | Join channel Accolades | Idea: Mail Revamp
New on STOwiki: Spire projects | STO Timeline | Fed-KDF Disparity | upcoming content
Fed Fleet: Section 31 (level 20) | KDF Fleet: Klingon Intelligence (level 20)

Last edited by phyrexianhero; 04-14-2013 at 03:38 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,361
# 8
04-14-2013, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
What exchange rates? Since the Fleetbases went live nearly 10 months ago I've made 5 million Dilithium just by myself. That's 1/4 of of the entire Starbase - assuming I had wanted to put it all there.

The only people putting real money into it are the "can't wait, must have it now" group.
I am not trying to pick a fight but let's get serious here. 10 months is approximately 300 days. At 8K dilithium, it is 2,400,000 or about 1/2 what you said you earned. Obviously, you could do it on 2+ toons. It takes me about 2-3 hours to grind 8K dilithium on my Kling. So we are talking about 6 hours a day grinding dilithium.

Now maybe you are super efficient but we are still talking about hours of grind day in and day out non stop for 6 months. Obviously, if you have dozens of active members contributing on a regular basis it is much easier. This does not include any of the other costs including the obtaining "doffs" and supplies.

In terms of man hours, we are talking about several peoples doing a part / full time job.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,361
# 9
04-14-2013, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
The numbers posted by me are accurate, though your exchange rate was off by a decimal point.

If you wanted to get the minimum dilithium needed to max out your starbase and embassy (currently 29,079,750 + 4,000,000 for limited time projects = 33,079,750 dilithium) and currently zen is selling at 104 dil/zen that'd require you to purchase 318,075 zen (and since there are 100 zen for $1.00 USD), this would cost $3,180.75. A considerable sum, made much easier if in a large fleet (split 25-ways it'd be $127 per person, or 500-ways it'd be just $6.37 per person). Keep in mind exchange rates do vary all the time, with historical values ranging between ~370 dil/zen (495 dil/CP) when the exchange went live in December 2011 to around 84 dil/zen in January 2013).

If you didn't want to use zen to get the dilithium, 33 million dilithium would take a single character 4135 days at maximum refining limit, or about 11.3 years. By then, of course, there'd be a host of new holdings that'd be added. Even the special limited time projects at 200,000 dilithium every 2 weeks take 25 days of maximum refining to obtain.
My bad I was a bit too eager to respond.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,408
# 10
04-14-2013, 03:38 PM
THANKYOU for compiling this.
HAIL HYDRA! Kirk's Protege 10/26/13 http://www.dtfleet.com
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