Career Officer
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,113
# 61
04-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
So... I was part of Caspian Division. We had a T4.5 starbase and a T2 embassy. I haven't been in game a few weeks due to a bad motherboard but I gather that one of our inactive founders' accounts was hacked and the person on the hacked account booted everyone and has claimed the base and fleet for himself. Cryptic can't or won't do anything, which is frustrating but I imagine it's the result of well meaning but inflexible policies and limited manpower. The community, I've heard, has been awesome.

However, I think this presents some real issues when people have spent thousands of hours and spent hundreds of dollars on a product that can be stolen this easily. It makes me reluctant to participate in the Fleet system again.
these things happen and nothing is ever guaranteed, dont be put off by one bad experience.

as for cryptic, pretty much all their tos and such is at your own risk, so one way or the other you are on your own and should of made preparations incase something like this happened. i would of if i were in your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Thinking about this, I have a proposal for a Fleet Equity system. It's really very simple.

The game already tracks lifetime fleet credit purchases. My idea is that, based on that total, there would be a starbase XP penalty when someone leaves a fleet based on their contribution total, which may include taking base amenities offline. Ie. boot everyone and the fleet gets knocked back to T0.

If someone gets booted, the penalty takes effect. When booting a person, you can discharge them dishonorably (nobody gets anything, the fleet loses progress) or honorably (the fleet still loses progress but the person gets sent an item which can be used to provide their new fleet with direct base XP, based on lifetime fleet credit). Either way, the fleet loses progress when someone gets booted.

If someone quits a fleet, they get nothing but get a choice whether the fleet they're leaving takes a progress penalty.

The point overall is to discourage fleet migration while encouraging amicable departures... And to make the hijacking of a fleet nearly impossible.

Thoughts?
i dont like this idea, it is open to significant abuse. what happens if someone makes up multiple accounts with multiple characters for the explicit purpose of kicking the fleet to the curb with this system because of the penalties?

i know this train of thought been through it myself several times, you question yourself on what should of been done. just forget about it, the system is the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it. found another fleet and start over, just be more wary of inviting other players to your fleet. nothing more you can do then that really.
Joined STO late 2010. Bought starter pack LoR & LTS 2013.
Proud owner of a Targ pup to a federation character.
T6 Miranda FTW! Hope to see Miranda Class made a T6 hero ship.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 865
# 62
04-22-2013, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
boot everyone and the fleet gets knocked back to T0.
OP: Ummmm... NO. This is ridiculous! Penalize a fleet when you need to boot someone? If would be great is the only reason to boot someone is if it's to steal the fleet.

(My suggestions are general and without detailed knowledge of the fleet leadership rights mechanics.)

Here's a logical mechanism that adds oversight and prevents a single account from taking over a fleet:


1. The leaders can only demote a member/leader with a majority vote between leaders,

2. A leader can only boot a non-leader,

3. All members (including leaders) must actively login every 30 days, otherwise their rights are temporarily on hold until a majority vote between leaders is made to reactivate them.

This only works if you have 3 leaders minimum.



This is just my 2 cents.
Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'

Last edited by sirokk; 04-22-2013 at 11:17 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 253
# 63
04-22-2013, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thlaylierah View Post
You can't buy Fleet Marks so it doesn't entice people to spend money like they think it does.
No, but you can purchase things that make earning them easier. Most of which includes spending Zen/Dilithium, which are interchangeable for people with more money than time.


Quote:
You can't sell Dilithium for ECs to buy DOFFs.
Not directly, but Dilithium is still easily converted in to ECs.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 37
# 64 My Thoughts as Fleet Leader
04-25-2013, 06:39 AM
I read the many posts and found them informative. As Fleet Leader of Caspian Rising, it fell to me along with Woody_Valley and BlackMagnum to bring us back.

As some said it takes five to create, but just one destroy a fleet. Here are some thoughts.
For creation, it will take three. Those three will be the Fleet Leaders. If they were there to help create the fleet, they then utilize the Leave Fleet option and they will be gone if they want to leave.

As for the fleet if the individual recruits other individuals, they will achieve the rank of Fleet Leader automatically. If an individual is to be demoted from the rank of Fleet Leader it will take a vote of the two fleet leaders with a 20 or 24 hour cool down for it to take effect; with a temporary reduction of the Leader?s abilities to make changes. Fleet members should be notified of such an event by the fleet notification system. Another individual MUST be selected to be Fleet Leader and accept if the Fleet Leader is removed.
There should be no penalty for removal of individuals.

Fleet Leaders should have the ability to see if an individual still has an active account by some form of icon, instead of the haphazard demotion method. (If I demoted an individual and did NOT see their name in the fleet notification that such and such person was demoted, I had to assume their account was no longer active or valid and the toon was removed.)

A notification of some sort should be sent to the owner of the account that their toon is being removed from the fleet for inactivity and their rank should be set to the lowest setting, until cool down ends. There should be some way for notification to be sent to the toon?s owner that they are being removed from the fleet. If they do not reply, or log-in, then their toon is removed at end of cool down.
Ranking System.

Pain in the backside, Fleet Leaders need to establish a rank for Military Gamers. In Caspian Rising and Caspian Honour Guard, we have that for our military members so that they can be identified for various reasons. This will allow those who have to deploy to still have a place when they come home. (We try to maintain contact via real world email when possible using the website.)

I noted an interesting ability in Neverwinter?s Guild System when an individual logged in and that there had been no one set as a Guild Leader, it immediately flashed on the screen there was none and would you like to take it. I of course accepted. The original ranking system had been changed which resulted in everyone being ?demoted?. Accepting it put me and others back in control.

Another nagging issue for current fleets is the fact there are Fleet Leaders no longer active and the members are languishing but want to still continue with their fleets. I believe that the timer system proposed on Fleet Leaders NOT being on-line with that character in thirty days and having someone else selected by the system to take over is a good idea. Once control is established, the process of removal can begin following the process, I wrote of earlier.

These are just some of my ideas and I would be willing to test them on Tribble as Caspian Rising and Caspian Honour Guard have established test fleets there.

Ballermaris
Ballermaris

www.caspian-division.com
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 86
# 65
04-25-2013, 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballermaris View Post
I read the many posts and found them informative. As Fleet Leader of Caspian Rising, it fell to me along with Woody_Valley and BlackMagnum to bring us back.

As some said it takes five to create, but just one destroy a fleet. Here are some thoughts.
For creation, it will take three. Those three will be the Fleet Leaders. If they were there to help create the fleet, they then utilize the Leave Fleet option and they will be gone if they want to leave.

As for the fleet if the individual recruits other individuals, they will achieve the rank of Fleet Leader automatically. If an individual is to be demoted from the rank of Fleet Leader it will take a vote of the two fleet leaders with a 20 or 24 hour cool down for it to take effect; with a temporary reduction of the Leader?s abilities to make changes. Fleet members should be notified of such an event by the fleet notification system. Another individual MUST be selected to be Fleet Leader and accept if the Fleet Leader is removed.
There should be no penalty for removal of individuals.

Fleet Leaders should have the ability to see if an individual still has an active account by some form of icon, instead of the haphazard demotion method. (If I demoted an individual and did NOT see their name in the fleet notification that such and such person was demoted, I had to assume their account was no longer active or valid and the toon was removed.)

A notification of some sort should be sent to the owner of the account that their toon is being removed from the fleet for inactivity and their rank should be set to the lowest setting, until cool down ends. There should be some way for notification to be sent to the toon?s owner that they are being removed from the fleet. If they do not reply, or log-in, then their toon is removed at end of cool down.
Ranking System.

Pain in the backside, Fleet Leaders need to establish a rank for Military Gamers. In Caspian Rising and Caspian Honour Guard, we have that for our military members so that they can be identified for various reasons. This will allow those who have to deploy to still have a place when they come home. (We try to maintain contact via real world email when possible using the website.)

I noted an interesting ability in Neverwinter?s Guild System when an individual logged in and that there had been no one set as a Guild Leader, it immediately flashed on the screen there was none and would you like to take it. I of course accepted. The original ranking system had been changed which resulted in everyone being ?demoted?. Accepting it put me and others back in control.

Another nagging issue for current fleets is the fact there are Fleet Leaders no longer active and the members are languishing but want to still continue with their fleets. I believe that the timer system proposed on Fleet Leaders NOT being on-line with that character in thirty days and having someone else selected by the system to take over is a good idea. Once control is established, the process of removal can begin following the process, I wrote of earlier.

These are just some of my ideas and I would be willing to test them on Tribble as Caspian Rising and Caspian Honour Guard have established test fleets there.

Ballermaris
On the last podcast Gecko said he wants to keep it so that if the founder wants to be a jerk and wake up one day and decide to kicked everyone from the fleet and disband it - it's their right to do so. Anyone in a fleet has to be aware that this could happen at any time and consider this when contributing to the fleet. This is the way that Al wants it to remain. he said they are thinking of a system where the other leaders will be notified, but in the end after X amount of time after the notification if the Founder still wants to kick everyone then that is their right.

That is the way Al said he wants it.

Last edited by number1romulan; 04-25-2013 at 06:51 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 623
# 66
04-25-2013, 07:16 AM
As I understand it the OPs fleet had multiple people in the rank 7 position, 1 of there accounts was hacked, and the kicked all the rest of the fleet members as well as the other rank 7 leaders. The solution to this seems simple and straight forward, don't allow 1 fleet leader to kick/demote another fleet leader. Instead make it so a majority of the players in the rank 7 position have to agree to kick/demote another rank 7. This would also solve the problem of people going nuts and trying to steal a fleet even without there account being hacked.

If a system like this was in place the worst that could have happened to the OPs fleet is all the members could have been kicked, but when the other leaders came online the could have taken care of the rogue account and tried to reassemble the fleet without the loss of there base.

This seems like a simple system that would solve allot of problems, only thing that it wouldn't help is fleets with only 1 leader, but would be a reason not to have a dictatorship.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,843
# 67
04-25-2013, 07:38 AM
Ballermaris: I believe some of that is in STO (claiming fleets when the leader is inactive) but that we were ineligible because we had two leaders.

Had you never been promoted to leader, you could have claimed the fleet when Kyle was inactive for 30 days. Because you were already a leader when Kyle went inactive, we had no means of removing Kyle from leadership aside from you booting him as he booted you.

Thinking this through, I think the best solution would be to have several rulesets in place for fleets to choose. Choosing should require unanimous support from all leaders. It should be permanent. And it should be visible when examining a fleet.

One ruleset could make things like they currently are. Buyer beware.

One ruleset might provide that no one of equal rank may kick anyone of equal rank. In this case, you have multiple leaders and they may only leave voluntarily.

One ruleset might provide that no one may be booted unless voted upon or inactive.

One ruleset might provide that no one may be booted unless inactive, by login.

One ruleset might provide that no one may be booted unless inactive and gold members remain perpetually active.

One ruleset might provide that no one may be booted at all, ever. This is basically akin to Stahl's "public fleet" option.

This may be too many options. You get the basic idea. You get to choose between being organized as a fleet but insecure in terms of retained value of contributions on one end of the spectrum and, on the other extreme, having absolute security in terms of retained value of contributions (ie. your membership is safe) but having to deal with people who don't like eachother in some cases but can't get rid of one another. And then something ibetween.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,355
# 68
04-25-2013, 07:45 AM
I like the fleet system the way it is you lose your fleet its on you not cryptic

step 1 don't give ppl your rank

step 2 don't go to porn site so account don't get hacked

step 3 repeat steps 1 and 2

and don't come back at me with ppl put real life money in to a fleets because as pointed out a lot you can get most if not every thing in the game for free also don't come at me well ppl put hard work in to there fleets because ppl put hard work in any guild in a mmo and they have same problem as sto

and don't give me well there needs to be more then one leader at the same rank because I know raiding guilds in wow with 400+ ppl and guess what only one can be guild master
swimwear off risa not fixed
system Lord Baal is dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,843
# 69
04-25-2013, 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daan2006 View Post
I like the fleet system the way it is you lose your fleet its on you not cryptic

step 1 don't give ppl your rank

step 2 don't go to porn site so account don't get hacked

step 3 repeat steps 1 and 2

and don't come back at me with ppl put real life money in to a fleets because as pointed out a lot you can get most if not every thing in the game for free also don't come at me well ppl put hard work in to there fleets because ppl put hard work in any guild in a mmo and they have same problem as sto

and don't give me well there needs to be more then one leader at the same rank because I know raiding guilds in wow with 400+ ppl and guess what only one can be guild master
Kyle was the ORIGINAL leader. He gave Baller his rank before going inactive.

Your solution would not apply to any of us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 86
# 70
04-25-2013, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Kyle was the ORIGINAL leader. He gave Baller his rank before going inactive.

Your solution would not apply to any of us.
But isn't there ever only 1 founder - sure you need 5 people but only 1 is the owner/founder.

As Al Rivera said he wants to keep the system so that this 1 founder/king/dictator can do anything with the fleet that they want - even if it is a "jerk" move to kick everyone and disband the fleet.

When you build a starbase in STO you have to be aware that you ARE building a king their space castle - period! That is the way the system is set up, and that is the way the dev's(at least Al) want it to stay.
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