Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,682
# 21
05-09-2013, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
It would be cool if you could just put your procs first.
You can--increase the tier-5 weapon skill and it will increase your proc rate. It's just very very expensive. Also, using cannons gives more chances to proc, since the firing cycle is shorter.

Nothing compares to hull damage though. Dead ships dont fire back
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2
# 22 New to STO
05-09-2013, 05:51 PM
Thank you for taking the time to help me out with that. Is there a web site with this info or a site with build types. I would like to learn to build my ships better.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,655
# 23
05-10-2013, 07:15 AM
Zarrafin - I have two minds on that issue:

1) I do not know the answer to your question above except to make the time to scour this and other forum of this website. Readr, read, read. Then get a ship and tinker, tinker, tinker. It goes without saying, but you need to know how to play the game in order to understand that your ship is a synergy of equipment, the ship itself, your Captain abilities and ultimately how *you* play the game. There are a lot of posts with feedback you can use right now - it will just take some research. I used the thread on the "Fleet DSSV" to augment the discussion here for instance

2) There are plenty of posts that says, "this is how you build this ship to be awesome" - but that is one person's point of view of what they think is optimizing that ship. *YOU* need to come up with your own plan to works for you. So these forums should be a guide to help you find what works for you.

As myself for an example, I've been playing the game for almost eight months. I use an Excelsior whose build I do not care to share because it is exactly what I want to play with for my solo game. BUT, I want to get into teams with other people and they are going to be strangers to me. So I decided to share my build here for feedback that will shape the ship to help others (which then leads to my own enjoyment). Frankly, I don't think this is the "best" build for this ship, but I'm okay with that, because it's better than it started and it will get better with time.

Btw, thank you all for the continued feedback! I hope it may be helping others besides myself.

Anyways, I've been stewing on ursusmorologus's point of view on Tetryons as related to the target ship. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is that I should be concentrating on killing off the hull, not really the shields. Coupled with the idea that several targets in STFs do not have shields anyway means a shield stripping proc is indeed useless ... but so are any other proc that is not involved with "damage" (Phaser, Polaron). So "Phased Tetryon" - although having two procs is almost doubley worthless. It's no wonder Plasma is awesome because it's doing extra damage without you doing anything more than normal. Disruptors are nice because it makes consequitive hits stronger (via lowering resistance) and Antiprotons rock because there is a chance to do greater damage per hit!

BUT - all of these bonuses matter *IF* the proc activates IF you hit the target ... and that's only 2.5% ... except on Antiprotons. And THAT'S why AP is desired above the rest (I think). So really, the thig that makes all these weapons work, on the surface, are the modifiers, correct? Consider this, I could replace my ships weapons for AP weapons relatively cheap by crafting them, versus hunting for bargains from the Exchange (have you seen those prices?! Damn extortionate imo). Honestly, I dislike the idea of using AP because that's expected. But if I really care about the team success then that's the way I may need to go This goes against my advice in this very post - *I* want to use Tetryon, there's something sexy about not doing what everyone else is doing and making it work, but I may be flying against conventional wisdom at my own peril ...

My Science ship will never outperform an Escort - and I don't believe I should be trying to make a build to that end. But I keep getting pulled in the direction that my ship must pump out as much damage as possible because that's what is really helping the team. Am I wrong thinking like this?
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,682
# 24
05-10-2013, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is that I should be concentrating on killing off the hull, not really the shields.
Yes. The objective in all things is killing the hull, and anything that helps to increase the amount of hull damage is going to make you win quicker. Shields are between you and the hull, but your only consideration is how to get them out of the way as soon as possible. The fastest ways are energy weapon fire on the weakest shield facing, or in the case of science you can simply turn them off with some kind of disable mechanism (target subsystems, viral, etc).

All the stuff that purports to drain shield is actually very bad at turning off the shield right in front of you and is mostly designed for draining the entire shield subsystem, which is useful in a few (very few) situtaitons where the target has the ability to replenish shields faster than you can take them down. For every other scenario, its inefficient in comparison to weapon fire or simply shutting them down.

Quote:
Coupled with the idea that several targets in STFs do not have shields anyway means a shield stripping proc is indeed useless ... but so are any other proc that is not involved with "damage" (Phaser, Polaron).
A lot of the stuff is unshielded but still armed and mobile, and if you have phaser or polaron proc you can disable their weapons and/or engines or make them do less damage. The only one that is truly worthless is tetryon.

Quote:
It's no wonder Plasma is awesome because it's doing extra damage without you doing anything more than normal. Disruptors are nice because it makes consequitive hits stronger (via lowering resistance) and Antiprotons rock because there is a chance to do greater damage per hit!
I use polarized disruptors on my cruiser (drop their resists and drain their power), and phased polaron on my sci (random shutdowns and drain their power). My KHG meatheads use plain disruptors and my Fed escort is going to use AP when I get him into a fleet (the fleet versions are Mk XII with [Acc]x2 which is the bestest for the cheapest price).

Sci ships dont have enough skill points to be generalists, you need to build a playbook and optimize for it. My guy is trying to shut down their shields and engines, and then squeeze them to death. There's a lot of randomness in the system so I have to use several techniques and roll them all to get consistent results. Phaser is one technique, polaron drain is another. I'm not even sure its working and I may change it around a bit, but that is why I am using phased polaron currently.

Quote:
So really, the thig that makes all these weapons work, on the surface, are the modifiers, correct?
Yes all the energy weapons do the same base damage, and at 2.5% the proc is just noise. You need to get +10% for it to start becoming consistent effect--this is where you start looking at accuracy and Crit Hit skill points, [CrtH] and [Acc] mods (accuracy over 100% becomes crit bonus), reputation consoles with CrtH bonus, etc.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 354
# 25
05-10-2013, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
A lot of the stuff is unshielded but still armed and mobile, and if you have phaser or polaron proc you can disable their weapons and/or engines or make them do less damage. The only one that is truly worthless is tetryon.
There's a cogent argument to be made for tetryon, if you're flying a support-oriented ship build, and have stacked flow caps, and run aux-heavy (which precludes the Aux2Bat build), and are in team play. That argument's going to be even stronger come LoR, with the Aux2Bat build being nailed, FaW able to proc weapon effects, and refracting tetryon weapons go live.

Granted, that's a lot of if's, and it amounts to a support build for suppressing shields for other players to have a free-for-all against enemy hull. But, there's still a cogent argument to be made for tetryon, which means it's only worthless in the "if it's not optimal it's garbage" min-maxing mindset.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,655
# 26
05-14-2013, 11:25 AM
So, I tinkered with the ship some recently as I replayed some story arcs in the Klingon line and saw something interesting: using phased Tetyrons DBB/turrets and a RFML, most big targets became either slowed or stopped, thus making it VERY cahallenging to keep them in my forward 90 degree arc! They spent more time was spent either on my sides or rear as I was manuvering for a front shot.

This had me wondering if I should replace the turrets with Beam Arrays. Thoughts? My thinking is, although I lose 3x turret shots to the front, but will gain in offense damage to the sides and rear. Maybe DPS will equalize over time? Honestly, because of that experience I was very tempted to get back into a BA loadout ... but I must resist that temptation! Simply put I didn't get as much use from the DBBs as I expected or tried.

Let me say that having the RFML was a hoot - but I really had to keep my finger on the trigger to maximize its use. Since my BOffs do not have torpedo boosting abilities I have a perception the RFML is a better choice over conventional torps only because of the increased fire arc. Since my targets were at the sides a lot, then the added punch from the missiles must have helped. The only problem I had was that I couldn't keep firing them as often as I wanted because of doing other things like activating other powers. or angling for a shot from the front.

I'm also tempted to just give up on trying to go against the grain on the energy weapons. This boat is for PvE STFs and that means going up against Borg. That means Disruptors, Plasma or Antiproton and I have a distinct impression AP is the cat's meow. Frankly, I may just craft the weapons to have them loaded faster than working the market to buy the really good stuff off the Exchange. I saw an Excelsior loadout on Youtube with AP BA having [Acc][CritH][Borg] mods and have no idea how he got it. Regardless, should I go for AP? I mean, is that really the better option for energy type against the Borg?
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Rihannsu
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 316
# 27
05-14-2013, 11:40 AM
AP is good because of it higher chance for Crit damage. Disruptors are equally worth the time because they can strip away resistances. Plasma has the hull burn added in, but don't do all that much damage when compared to the other two.

Best choice would probably be a combination of either AP/Dis or Dis/Plasma. Strip away the resistances to either and you have a stronger affect on the target.

As for the item you saw on that build, I believe the only way you can get it is through a Fleet store.


Keep your tetryon build in reserve, it does help against Borg when in Infected, Hive, or Cure space. The only space one I know of where shields are non-existent is Khitomer (excluding the Cubes and Scimitar). When you team up with people in your fleet, let them know what you're planning, that way they can adjust accordingly.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,203
# 28
05-16-2013, 05:13 AM
I'd just like to say I found this thread a good read for my own sci character. I particularly found the discussion on tetryon weapons worthwhile reading, as I've been using tetryons on my Intrepid-class and I was on the fence about their effectiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
So, I tinkered with the ship some recently as I replayed some story arcs in the Klingon line and saw something interesting: using phased Tetyrons DBB/turrets and a RFML, most big targets became either slowed or stopped, thus making it VERY cahallenging to keep them in my forward 90 degree arc! They spent more time was spent either on my sides or rear as I was manuvering for a front shot.

This had me wondering if I should replace the turrets with Beam Arrays. Thoughts? My thinking is, although I lose 3x turret shots to the front, but will gain in offense damage to the sides and rear. Maybe DPS will equalize over time? Honestly, because of that experience I was very tempted to get back into a BA loadout ... but I must resist that temptation! Simply put I didn't get as much use from the DBBs as I expected or tried.
I'd like to respond to this with my experiences playing on a stock-standard Luna that had polaron DBBs at the time. That configuration was like x2 DBBs with x2 BAs in the aft sections, with torpedoes fore and aft. I found this to be suboptimal myself.

I don't particularly like DBBs and turrets from a canon perspective, I tend to try to outfit all of my ships with something that at least resembles what we see on the various shows. For instance, my tac character flies a Defiant and has the quad phasers, so every other weapon is a phaser too. The Sovvie-refit my eng flies has q-torps fore and aft and phaser BAs for much the same reason. The DBB hardpoints on a lot of ships just look ridiculous in comparison to what I was expecting/hoping for (I was hoping they'd fire from the beam array hardpoints, just with the restricted frontal arc). However, I've tried them paired with BAs, and I have to tell you the fact none of the two weapon system's firing arcs overlaps makes playing with them frustrating. Either go full BAs, which has the problem another poster mentioned wrt power drain, or go with the DBB/turret configuration, don't try to merge them because they don't play well together. From a min/max perspective, DBBs/turrets are the better option, or cannons/turrets are even better if you want a marginal increase to DPS.

Also as others have mentioned, the turn rate on the Luna is high enough that you can utilise the DBBs to good effect. Broadsiding is something you have to do by necessity with cruisers, but you don't have to with science vessels. Well, except for the Nebula-class.

Quote:
I'm also tempted to just give up on trying to go against the grain on the energy weapons. This boat is for PvE STFs and that means going up against Borg. That means Disruptors, Plasma or Antiproton and I have a distinct impression AP is the cat's meow. Frankly, I may just craft the weapons to have them loaded faster than working the market to buy the really good stuff off the Exchange. I saw an Excelsior loadout on Youtube with AP BA having [Acc][CritH][Borg] mods and have no idea how he got it. Regardless, should I go for AP? I mean, is that really the better option for energy type against the Borg?
From what I understand, disruptors are great when it comes to damage, but if you have them the plasma weapons from the Rom reputation line exceed them. I don't know the actual numbers though, other people have run the numbers. The increased crit severity from AP is nothing to sneer at though. My friend runs AP weapons on his ships and he swears by them. Really, if this thread has said anything on the matter it's that the only bad option is tetryons.

Personally I prefer going with stuff for canon/RP reasons. In any case, the discussion on tetryons has made me reevaluate their use, so I will be looking at other weapons for my sci character.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,655
# 29
05-16-2013, 07:11 AM
Thank you for the continued responses!

@risingstar2009 - I paid enough EC for the Phased Tetryon so I'm definitely going to keep them in the short run. I'm still trying to see if they are not what they seem to be, but I may be running on some crazy idea of hope on them.

@stofsk - If this discussion has helped anyone other than me then that makes my experience more valuable I've seen some cannon builds (with turrets of course) but STOWiki says DBB do more dmage than canons. Frankly, the fire arc on DBB has been increasingly frustrating even with the Luna's nimbleness; that may be because I use a cruiser in solo play with BAs. Regardless, Canons may be a better fit for my playstyle, but I'm trying to make a support ship and lowering DPS goes against that goal, I think. Still, a greater fire arc is really appealing.

Honestly, I RP as much as I can, but since this boat if for STFs then I need (want) it to be more functional from a game perspective. Buuuuut - if canons are closer to "canon" then that's just icing on my RP-cake
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,203
# 30
05-16-2013, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
@stofsk - If this discussion has helped anyone other than me then that makes my experience more valuable I've seen some cannon builds (with turrets of course) but STOWiki says DBB do more dmage than canons. Frankly, the fire arc on DBB has been increasingly frustrating even with the Luna's nimbleness; that may be because I use a cruiser in solo play with BAs. Regardless, Canons may be a better fit for my playstyle, but I'm trying to make a support ship and lowering DPS goes against that goal, I think. Still, a greater fire arc is really appealing.

Honestly, I RP as much as I can, but since this boat if for STFs then I need (want) it to be more functional from a game perspective. Buuuuut - if canons are closer to "canon" then that's just icing on my RP-cake
Cannons paired with turrets have a higher DPS over DBBs and turrets because you can use the cannon: rapid fire boff tactical ability. If you're using DBBs, it's better to get fire at will or beam overload instead. But if you have those skills, then your turrets don't benefit. Having said that, I don't think the increase in DPS is a major thing. As I think you said earlier in the thread, science vessels are never going to compete with escorts or even cruisers in firepower.

For RP though, cannons aren't closer to canon - other than the Defiant, and maybe the movie Constitution and Reliant, no other Starfleet vessel used cannons. One way I think I hobble myself a bit by going the RP route, is in giving my Intrepid two photorp launchers fore and aft, because well the ship model has those launchers on it. That and it has beam arrays. But in STFs, sometimes what matters more is the various science abilities you can bring to the table than raw damage - especially when you play with PUGs. I know I've saved more than a few elite STF instances with the judicious and timely use of Grav Well or a tractor beam.
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