Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,724
# 541
04-25-2013, 11:36 PM
It still comes off as if folks are not considering the LEFT and the RIGHT in discussing how things are being balanced. Put all the things considered "bonuses" on the LEFT and all the things considered "negatives" on the RIGHT. I have a strange feeling that some folks are not taking into account certain things...

Go on, compare the Warbirds to several ships - compare them to Raiders/Raptors/Battle Cruisers/Cruisers/Escorts...notice how each of them give up something for something. Then notice that the Warbirds are not necessarily giving up some of those things for the things they gain...therefore, the balance has to come from somewhere.

Have to figure that much of it is coming from that apparent feeling of a lack of choice.

The Fed can choose Cruiser, Escort, Science Vessel, Carrier, etc.
The KDF can choose Raider, Raptor, Battle Cruiser, Support Vessel, Carrier, etc.
The Rom can choose...Warbird.

There's bound to be backlash...much like if Feds could only choose to fly one type or KDF could only choose to fly one type. Wouldn't matter if there were variations in that one type, it would still feel limited by comparison...no?


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer - U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser - U.S.S. K'Dyr, D'Kyr Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 542
04-25-2013, 11:48 PM
It's like two forces working against each other. I certainly do not envy the devs job right now.

A) The benefit must be noticeable
B) The drawback must be worth it

Low effect / low drawback vs. high effect / high drawback. Problem is, most people would like to get the new mechanics for free.

If people could get some of the lost power back via non-crappy engineering consoles (to at least one subsystem they feel they need), it wouldn't be half bad.

But seriously, mk XII purple consoles ? +4 to subsystem power ?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,724
# 543
04-26-2013, 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
If people could get some of the lost power back via non-crappy engineering consoles (to at least one subsystem they feel they need), it wouldn't be half bad.

But seriously, mk XII purple consoles ? +4 to subsystem power ?
As an aside, I still think they should add separate drain/offline resistance to those consoles. You get a little power and you get resistance to that subsystem being taken offline sort of thing.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer - U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser - U.S.S. K'Dyr, D'Kyr Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 544
04-26-2013, 12:21 AM
Indeed... if the power consoles weren't so useless, the power drain could be at least partially compensated for. Were they concerned that with +10 on a power console, people would super stack them? Introduce diminishing returns: Full benefit from the first one of a type, half benefit from a second of the same type, etc. Or just make it limit 1 per energy type.

But if they are going to take away something, I like the suggestion of a devices penalty. How about a romulan singularity core is sooooo ... *insert technobable*... that the ship has absolutely no room for devices, or can only have one device, so choose wisely.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 545
04-26-2013, 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Indeed... if the power consoles weren't so useless, the power drain could be at least partially compensated for. Were they concerned that with +10 on a power console, people would super stack them? Introduce diminishing returns: Full benefit from the first one of a type, half benefit from a second of the same type, etc. Or just make it limit 1 per energy type.

But if they are going to take away something, I like the suggestion of a devices penalty. How about a romulan singularity core is sooooo ... *insert technobable*... that the ship has absolutely no room for devices, or can only have one device, so choose wisely.
And what if they stack them ? Those ships with many engineering slots SHOULD stack them, to get benefit out of it. Energy dmg consoles are also stacked and noone minds it.

Beside armors, rcs consoles are all viable choices, stacking power means lowering surviability and turn and that is a fair tradeoff.

Right now, +4 is not worth for ANYONE. And I'm not sure if even +8 would be appealing.

I say my idea again, change those consoles to +10% power to a subsystem. So it is +5 at 50 but +10 on 100. All of the consoles can also have secondary effects.

Weapon - energy drain resistance
Shields - faster shield distribution
Engine - quicker acceleration / counter to inertia
Aux - whatever
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 546
04-26-2013, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
As an aside, I still think they should add separate drain/offline resistance to those consoles. You get a little power and you get resistance to that subsystem being taken offline sort of thing.
I don't really care for that mechanic simply because there's already emergency powers and batteries to counter a targeted/offline subsystem, engineering team brings it back online too, does it not? Of course few have engineering team because tac team is the gold standard. plus there's power insulators as a skill and as a console to mitigate that. This game has far too many hard counters for "clever" or "effect" skills as it is. Since targeting a subsystem or ejecting warp plasma or aceton beam, or tractor beams or pretty much anything that isn't pure escort pwn has a hard counter from abilities/items most people carry, these skills do next to nothing.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 547
04-26-2013, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
And what if they stack them ? Those ships with many engineering slots SHOULD stack them, to get benefit out of it. Energy dmg consoles are also stacked and noone minds it.

Beside armors, rcs consoles are all viable choices, stacking power means lowering surviability and turn and that is a fair tradeoff.

Right now, +4 is not worth for ANYONE. And I'm not sure if even +8 would be appealing.

I say my idea again, change those consoles to +10% power to a subsystem. So it is +5 at 50 but +10 on 100. All of the consoles can also have secondary effects.

Weapon - energy drain resistance
Shields - faster shield distribution
Engine - quicker acceleration / counter to inertia
Aux - whatever
Well they nerfed them for a reason... I'm not saying I think it would be OP to be able to stack the consoles, I'm just saying if they didn't like stacking to make it so there are diminishing returns.

Technically, I think the game would be better if energy weapon consoles and other tactical consoles had diminishing returns too. Then everyone wouldn't be clamoring for the ships with the most tac consoles all the time. Plus if they introduced accuracy or crit hit or crit damage tac consoles, an escort would have more selection in their field rather than the default stack 4-5 of whatever energy weapon type you're using. They would still have the option of stacking 4-5 consoles for maximum energy damage while sacrificing the efficiency of having better torps and accuracy and crits or what have you.

I think that the energy weapon drain mechanic should be sorted out in general before throwing a "fix" in for it on a weapon energy console. And technically more power in the system is a counter to the drain, so instead of drain resistance, just make the console a worth while +10 or +15 or whatever.

Shield distribution should work as quickly on manual as it does for tac team. The benefit of tac team is that it's intelligent, it diverts shields where they need to be as damage comes in on top of boosting weapon damage, it should not also distribute shields faster than you can manually.

I think if you give the energy boosting consoles a proper level of benefit, they don't need secondary effects. By simple virtue of adding power to a system, they resist drain as drain typically comes as a set -x to a system, not a constant -x per second. So if an ability is -20 to a subsystem and you normally have 25 but you have a +10 console, instead of dropping to 5 power, you drop to 15... that is sufficient counter to that subsystem targeting or other energy draining skill.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,724
# 548
04-26-2013, 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I don't really care for that mechanic simply because there's already emergency powers and batteries to counter a targeted/offline subsystem, engineering team brings it back online too, does it not? Of course few have engineering team because tac team is the gold standard. plus there's power insulators as a skill and as a console to mitigate that. This game has far too many hard counters for "clever" or "effect" skills as it is. Since targeting a subsystem or ejecting warp plasma or aceton beam, or tractor beams or pretty much anything that isn't pure escort pwn has a hard counter from abilities/items most people carry, these skills do next to nothing.
Hrmm, see - I hate the majority of the current systems since they are after the fact instead of anything preventative. It leads to various absurd situations and painfully illogical scenarios.

As is, the game is entirely too Yo-Yo in its mechanics.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer - U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser - U.S.S. K'Dyr, D'Kyr Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 549
04-26-2013, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hrmm, see - I hate the majority of the current systems since they are after the fact instead of anything preventative. It leads to various absurd situations and painfully illogical scenarios.

As is, the game is entirely too Yo-Yo in its mechanics.
I think the yo-yo is only really felt because a few things are over powered. If they introduced diminishing returns to tactical consoles, I don't think we'd have escorts/bops insta burning through your shields when emergency power to shields comes down (and often times they can burn through them despite it anyway)

There are plenty of preventatives like power insulators, inertial dampers, sensors, stealth, subsystem repair, the passive armor skills, starship maneuvers, they all help to reduce the effect of abilities or the length of time you are affected by them, and I'm sure there's probably a couple I missed.

I feel that there's too much "after the fact" abilities to hard counter the "special" abilities, which are primarily science and engineering. And I think it's this effortless ability to remove or ignore the effects of most science and engineering abilities plus the lack of diminishing returns on tactical consoles that makes most people feel that escorts are king of the hill.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,958
# 550
04-26-2013, 01:40 AM
I am surprised that they let you keep each power as you go up.

I would thought you have to choose. That way you lose power for 1 ability, or never use that ability and get a bonus from the charged core.

having 5 at max rank, gives you a lot of tactical options to use.

Now that in itself is fine as everyone loves options, but it does feel like the Klingons and Feds need their own system if the Romulan one is going to be so extensive.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
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