Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 551
04-26-2013, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainrevo1 View Post
Now that in itself is fine as everyone loves options, but it does feel like the Klingons and Feds need their own system if the Romulan one is going to be so extensive.
I was thinking the same. I could imagine battery mechanics, exactly the same as singularity stuff.

Except it would act as emergency power source of sort.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 552
04-26-2013, 01:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
There are plenty of preventatives like power insulators, inertial dampers, sensors, stealth, subsystem repair, the passive armor skills, starship maneuvers, they all help to reduce the effect of abilities or the length of time you are affected by them, and I'm sure there's probably a couple I missed.
Reducing the effect of something after it has taken place...is not preventative.

A person could have 9 in Sensors, 5x Mk XII Ultra-Rare Romulan Sensor Consoles, other +Sensor Gear, have popped QSM, etc, etc, etc...and they will still get jammed by the guy with a JS1 without a single point of CMS or any CMS gear. Sure, it wont' last long - but the jam will still have taken place. That's just silly. Subsystem Repair works the same way.

There's a difference between something that reduces the effect of something - such as Insulators vs. Drain - and - something that reduces the effect of something after the fact - such a Subsystem Repair bringing a system back online sooner. The Subsystem still went offline. There's no hardening.

There's Hull Damage Resistance and Shield Damage Reduction - which reduce the affect of the weapon that hits. There's also Maneuvers/Targeting which affect whether that hit took place in the first place. That To-Hit is sorely missing in many areas of the game.

There are many complaints about how weak certain things are...well, they've got a 100% chance to-hit. Perhaps if there was actually some form of To-Hit mechanic in place, then they could be boosted.

That guy oozing sensors....the guy with no CMS...that jam shouldn't have the same chance to jam that guy oozing sensors as a guy that's got no sensors. In turn, that guy without sensors should feel more of an effect from it than they currently do.

People should have a noticeable return on their investment - both offensively and defensively.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 553
04-26-2013, 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I was thinking the same. I could imagine battery mechanics, exactly the same as singularity stuff.

Except it would act as emergency power source of sort.
I believe the highest rarity of warp cores is supposed to get a "capacitor" ability with a longer cool and lower effect than a battery. And I think it's just one type of capacitor based on type of warpcore i.e. if you select a shield enhancing warp core, you get a shield enhancing capacitor, or maybe it's randomly attached so you could get a shield warpcore with an aux capacitor.

Either way, if they gave the feds and the klingons their own version of this singularity thing or some other bonus, it would negate the need for the penalties on these abilities... but then they keep saying they don't want "mudflation" so they don't want to give the feds and klinks something in exchange, they want to take away from some other part of the romulans to compensate for the system. Which, like I said, I think pretty much compensates for itself with how rarely and unreliably it will be available. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a touch of extra flavor and not some new uber something that requires balancing.

I also wouldn't mind them giving all cloaking vessels the ability to battle cloak if that would prevent "compensating" for it with tremendous power reductions. I always thought all cloaking ships should be able to cloak during battle anyway, the consequences of battle cloaking when in a big ship balance the ability to do so... shields down for 10 seconds and if you don't get blown to hell, you get an advantage... that is what we call 'self balanced.'

Romulans can simply be the "masters of cloak" in that their racial passives give them bonus to defense and stealth while cloaking and they have another passive that reduces cool time on cloaking abilities. And I wouldn't consider making all cloaking ships into battle cloakers "mudflation" I would consider it fixing an oversight. Despite klingon honor and their desire to die gloriously in battle, their big ships could cloak whenever they felt like it, they just knew it was more dangerous as a big, slower ship because the shields would go down making them a biiiig juicy target and they could easily get blown to stovokor.

However, instead of making the capacitor on the fed and klingon warp cores have a crappy cool time, they could make it more readily available and useable for every subsystem instead of just one. It could work just like the romulan system with the "pips" that charge up, and then have the four subsystems it can be put into... the more pips you fill, the longer the duration when you pop it or the stronger the effect or a combination of the two. The system and all four options of capacitor to weapons, shields, engines, and aux could be available from the start, which contrasts with the romulan system which gains a power each rank up.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 554
04-26-2013, 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Reducing the effect of something after it has taken place...is not preventative.

A person could have 9 in Sensors, 5x Mk XII Ultra-Rare Romulan Sensor Consoles, other +Sensor Gear, have popped QSM, etc, etc, etc...and they will still get jammed by the guy with a JS1 without a single point of CMS or any CMS gear. Sure, it wont' last long - but the jam will still have taken place. That's just silly. Subsystem Repair works the same way.

There's a difference between something that reduces the effect of something - such as Insulators vs. Drain - and - something that reduces the effect of something after the fact - such a Subsystem Repair bringing a system back online sooner. The Subsystem still went offline. There's no hardening.

There's Hull Damage Resistance and Shield Damage Reduction - which reduce the affect of the weapon that hits. There's also Maneuvers/Targeting which affect whether that hit took place in the first place. That To-Hit is sorely missing in many areas of the game.

There are many complaints about how weak certain things are...well, they've got a 100% chance to-hit. Perhaps if there was actually some form of To-Hit mechanic in place, then they could be boosted.

That guy oozing sensors....the guy with no CMS...that jam shouldn't have the same chance to jam that guy oozing sensors as a guy that's got no sensors. In turn, that guy without sensors should feel more of an effect from it than they currently do.

People should have a noticeable return on their investment - both offensively and defensively.
They do have a noticeable return on investment, instead of being jammed or scrambled for 20 seconds or more, you get jammed/scrambled for less time. No one should be immune to abilities, for crap's sake, most people are basically immune to most everything anyway with hazard emitters and tac and sci teams and all kinds of everything flying around the field. Even if someone was lucky enough to catch you in warp plasma when your hazard emitters were down, chances are one of your team mates has it and can send it your way.

The special abilities in the game would probably work fine if there weren't so many hard counters to them.

P.S. If you put on a helmet and get in an accident and get a concussion rather than dieing, the helmet was preventative. Just like these abilities are preventative of you being AS screwed as you would have been otherwise.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 555
04-26-2013, 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
They do have a noticeable return on investment, instead of being jammed or scrambled for 20 seconds or more, you get jammed/scrambled for less time. No one should be immune to abilities, for crap's sake, most people are basically immune to most everything anyway with hazard emitters and tac and sci teams and all kinds of everything flying around the field. Even if someone was lucky enough to catch you in warp plasma when your hazard emitters were down, chances are one of your team mates has it and can send it your way.
You have 9 Sensors, 9 Graviton, a mix of Sensors/Grav gear. You use a TB3 on somebody. That person has 0 CMS and uses a JS1 on you. What happened to your Tractor? Broken, eh? Yes, broken...double entendre love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
The special abilities in the game would probably work fine if there weren't so many hard counters to them.
They're too easy to spam. Just like the counters are too easy to spam. It's all too easy...thus, the Yo-Yo mechanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
P.S. If you put on a helmet and get in an accident and get a concussion rather than dieing, the helmet was preventative. Just like these abilities are preventative of you being AS screwed as you would have been otherwise.
It prevented death. It did not prevent the concussion. It's specific. Something preventing you from suffering as much is no the same as something preventing you from suffering at all.

If a person does not have the accuracy to hit you with their weapons, you have prevented them doing any damage to you. Likewise, if you're Sensors skill is at such a level in comparison to their Countermeasures skill...they shouldn't be able to jam you.

Say somebody wants to steal your car.

Initially, it's a case that you've left the keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked. Doesn't require much effort on their part.

You don't leave the keys in the ignition. That increases their required effort.

You don't leave the doors unlocked. That increase their required effort.

You add an alarm...

You put it a garage...

You move to a gated community...

Etc, etc, etc. As you've increased your investment, as you've put more effort into something not happening...it in turn requires more effort on their part to make it happen. If you make that investment and they don't...then it doesn't happen.

That is sorely missing from STO.

edit: This is getting woefully off topic. It was merely a suggestion to make the Eng Power consoles more viable and how those in turn might help to alleviate some of the power concerns for the Singularity Cores...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 04-26-2013 at 02:46 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 556
04-26-2013, 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
You have 9 Sensors, 9 Graviton, a mix of Sensors/Grav gear. You use a TB3 on somebody. That person has 0 CMS and uses a JS1 on you. What happened to your Tractor? Broken, eh? Yes, broken...double entendre love.
Hmm... I don't have a problem with their jam landing, but I think the tractor shouldn't be broken. If the beam isn't shut off, they should still be stuck in it even if you can't "see" them. But I think the potentially problematic mechanic there is that if tractors actually slowed rather than stopping ships, the tractor wouldn't be able to follow the ship's movement to keep it slowed. So in a world where tractor beams actually slowed rather than stopped ships and inertial dampers actually reduced the amount you were slowed by a tractor beam, I think it would make sense for the beam to break. However, if your sensors cleared and the duration of tractor beam was still active e.g. your tractor lasts 15 seconds, because they used a low jam and your sensors are so good, it clears in 5 seconds, if they didn't get out of range of the tractor due to incompetence or they can't move that fast, your tractor should catch them and finish the 10 seconds of hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
They're too easy to spam. Just like the counters are too easy to spam. It's all too easy...thus, the Yo-Yo mechanic.
I don't think most of the skills are too easy to spam, I think many of them are way too powerful. If scramble sensors reduced your targeting range and accuracy rather than making you heal your enemy, that skill would still be insanely useful but not the ridiculousness it is currently. Jam sensors only affects one person and only jams their perception of the caster, not everyone else, so that's pretty limited anyway. It's so damn hard to catch someone in warp plasma anyway... but I don't think that one's working properly, it should slow ships and with a certain doff have a *chance* to disable, but it pretty much stops anything caught in it hard. So I don't think that is working as intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It prevented death. It did not prevent the concussion. It's specific. Something preventing you from suffering as much is no the same as something preventing you from suffering at all.

If a person does not have the accuracy to hit you with their weapons, you have prevented them doing any damage to you. Likewise, if you're Sensors skill is at such a level in comparison to their Countermeasures skill...they shouldn't be able to jam you.

Say somebody wants to steal your car.

Initially, it's a case that you've left the keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked. Doesn't require much effort on their part.

You don't leave the keys in the ignition. That increases their required effort.

You don't leave the doors unlocked. That increase their required effort.

You add an alarm...

You put it a garage...

You move to a gated community...

Etc, etc, etc. As you've increased your investment, as you've put more effort into something not happening...it in turn requires more effort on their part to make it happen. If you make that investment and they don't...then it doesn't happen.

That is sorely missing from STO.
They've made a point of making it so that evasion in this game can never be so strong as to prevent you from hitting someone/something at all, so if they made it so that one could up their stats so far as to not get jammed at all, they would be violating that "you'll never be invulnerable" mechanic. And even if they introduced a mechanic that allows you a chance to "resist" an effect taking hold at all, so many of the special abilities are once every 45 seconds or more, and specifically with jams/scrambles, they leave you with a resistance to a second jam/scramble. So they didn't invest in countermeasures or whatever, you have super advanced sensors, they jam your sensors, but it's for like 5 seconds because your sensors are so advanced they quickly compensate for the interference. That makes perfect sense. If they had invested in countermesures, they could get it up to 10, if you hadn't invested in sensors, they can get it up to 15. Also, since your sensors cleared within 5 seconds instead of 15 or 20, you didn't have to use a sci team to clear it or lessen it further. And what has this ship that hasn't invested in countermeasures doing with such a weak jam sensors? Is this an escort that gave up a vital heal just to have this tractor counter? Well damn, you've been foiled from pinning them down, but they have given up something for that tactic. But also, if you've taken a second copy of tractor beam, you can have another go at them before their jam refreshes, or if you had a wingman with tractor, they could. But as I explained above, tractors don't work as intended anyway.

Honestly, one of my pet peaves is that the "tractors will hold you less" inertial dampers skill pretty much does nothing. If you invest into it, tractor beams will still stop you dead, the only thing it does is prevent repulsers from pushing you which means it actually hits you harder by keeping you in its damage instead of getting pushed away, now THAT's broken. I don't think tractors would need the hard counters of attack pattern omega or polarize hull if they legitimately slowed you rather than stopping you dead and if inertial dampers actually mitigated their effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
edit: This is getting woefully off topic. It was merely a suggestion to make the Eng Power consoles more viable and how those in turn might help to alleviate some of the power concerns for the Singularity Cores...
Technically this isn't off topic, they suggested that a fleet D'Deridex would have the same boffs as a fleet galaxy and the villagers started lighting torches and gathering pitch forks... I'm pretty sure I heard someone shout, "I'll get the rope!" If they don't want this rage toward the builds they're thinking for these ships, they need to fix these boff powers. If boarding party weren't constantly cleared by the back to back tac team most everyone has, if eject warp plasma AND aceton beam weren't both completely cleared by hazard emitters, if directed energy modulation did more than scratch paint, people wouldn't be so averse to the idea, and you'd see several more galaxy class ships flying around... because they're effective, not because a fanboy's gonna fly his favorite ship no matter how crap it is.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 557
04-26-2013, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Technically this isn't off topic, they suggested that a fleet D'Deridex would have the same boffs as a fleet galaxy and the villagers started lighting torches and gathering pitch forks... I'm pretty sure I heard someone shout, "I'll get the rope!" If they don't want this rage toward the builds they're thinking for these ships, they need to fix these boff powers. If boarding party weren't constantly cleared by the back to back tac team most everyone has, if eject warp plasma AND aceton beam weren't both completely cleared by hazard emitters, if directed energy modulation did more than scratch paint, people wouldn't be so averse to the idea, and you'd see several more galaxy class ships flying around... because they're effective, not because a fanboy's gonna fly his favorite ship no matter how crap it is.
"Official Romulan Ship and Singularity Mechanic Feedback Thread"

This discussion is relevant to this thread only in that it is relevant to all ships, including Romulans. It has nothing to do specifically with Romulan ships or the Singularity mechanics anymore; as such, it's so far out in left field right now it's in the parking lot. Of a different stadium.

Not saying it's not a worthwhile discussion, but not one for this thread anymore.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 558
04-26-2013, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
"Official Romulan Ship and Singularity Mechanic Feedback Thread"

This discussion is relevant to this thread only in that it is relevant to all ships, including Romulans. It has nothing to do specifically with Romulan ships or the Singularity mechanics anymore; as such, it's so far out in left field right now it's in the parking lot. Of a different stadium.

Not saying it's not a worthwhile discussion, but not one for this thread anymore.
I disagree, I am specifically referring to romulan vessels and their performance when I am speaking of these abilities. I may occasionally reference other ships to make a point as we have more experience with them and as romulan vessels will ultimately be compared to them. If my presentation has ever been so unclear as to my intention or the subject matter at hand, I thoroughly apologize. However, this discussion is entirely centered on making the proposed romulan ship layouts effective. Are you are saying that these changes might also fix other ships too? Well, my goodness, I hadn't even considered that...

What a fortuitous coincidence...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 559
04-26-2013, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Well they nerfed them for a reason... I'm not saying I think it would be OP to be able to stack the consoles, I'm just saying if they didn't like stacking to make it so there are diminishing returns.
They did nerf them for a reason, but times have changed. +3.5 or 4 is meaningless now. +7 or 8 to a single subsystem is still nowhere near OP.

The cost comparison of Purple Mk XII +power consoles is kind of skewed because the consoles themselves are so underpowered.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 560
04-26-2013, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
They did nerf them for a reason, but times have changed. +3.5 or 4 is meaningless now. +7 or 8 to a single subsystem is still nowhere near OP.

The cost comparison of Purple Mk XII +power consoles is kind of skewed because the consoles themselves are so underpowered.
Just to clarify, I meant that they had a reason for nerfing the consoles, not that it was a good one or that I agreed with it. Not even sure if I was playing the game at the time of the nerf to have been affected by it or know the rationale behind it. I was just suggesting that if the reason they nerfed the power consoles was because people were stacking +40 power to a single subsystem or something and this displeased the gods for some reason, that they could simply introduce diminishing returns or limit it to one console per energy type. Personally, if they were +10 or more power, I would consider throwing in one or two, but as it stands, I'd never use the energy consoles.
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