Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 474
# 581
04-26-2013, 05:49 PM
You are diffidently over reacting play their ships before you, you conclude that the singularity abilities > 40 loss of over all power. Some are useful sure but they are very very situational.

kdf and fed get warp cores that add to max power and have better mods overall Imo. Though i have yet to see very rare of either singularity or warp cores.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 582
04-26-2013, 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Well, like I said in a previous post, I think there are other ways to compensate for just the battle cloak. I gave the example of the two veteran reward ships, the chimera and the... whatever the klingon one is called. They are identical in every way except the klingon one has a battle cloak and -8% shields. That would lead me to believe that the devs felt that -8% to shields was a sufficient trade off for that ship to have a battle cloak. If the D'deridex is basically a galaxy class with a different look and less turn rate, it would seem to me that.. well, for one, the lower turn rate, and some compensation in the shields or hull like -8% could compensate for a battle cloak. Plus there's the inherent disadvantages of trying to battle cloak a small moon... low turn rate, big target... yeah, seems like the battle cloak could very well compensate for itself by blowing you up every time you use it pvp. But that, of course, is just looking at "how do we stick a battle cloak on this" not the special powers.
I'm just primarily concerned about dropping a new, untested cost and moving to a "been there, done that" cost, especially one that pushes the ship closer to an existing type (the "squishy battle cloak" raiders); we know how the -8% cost works already, I'd like to give the power level penalties a chance to see how much challenge it actually offers.

As for "blow you up every time you use it in pvp", does the Defense stat really count for so little in PvP? (Not snarking, honest question; I have a crap internet connection and don't enjoy being lagged to death repeatedly, so I don't do PvP). The battle cloak's defensive buff kicks in immediately on trigger, I noticed, so I was hoping that would serve as some, well, defense until you broke LOS by completing the cloaking. Against NPCs I noticed that usually over 2/3rds of incoming attacks that were still en route when I popped the cloak missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I am not sure how I feel about the lower power levels.. they're considering -5 for now or -5 with some compromise to the boffs or consoles or whatever, but -10 might not really be such a big deal... The one thing I"m really concerned about though is that, it is my understanding, that the maximum you can set weapons to is 90, and my ships never feel like they are doing any damage unless they have weapons set to 100 with the bonus power taking it up to/near 125, so not being able to put as much power into weapons could be really bad. Of course, it's been discussed how if they would de-nerf power enhancing consoles, one could rather painlessly compensate for at least one system they felt crucial to have the +10 back... but, again, guess we'll just have to wait and see.
For the power levels, you set them as you normally would, e.g. 100 to weapon, 50 to shield, 25 to eng and aux under the standard full weapons setting. In the ACTUAL power, though, each stat takes a factors in a -10 among its other factors, such as Warp Core Efficiency. (As a side note, efficiency looks at the amount of power you allocated, not what you actually get, so your efficiency bonus for a 25 Aux is calculated from 25, not 15. Alas.) Since the two "escort" warbirds (Dhelan and Mogai) also get a +10 to weapons and +5 to engines, you will get 100 power when you set your weapons to 100. I don't know if you can properly hit a baseline 125 weapon power, but it's within reach of achieving through temporary effects. Also, I like to point out my science vessel does a rather nice amount of DPS with only 45 weapon power.

Oh, and the current entry for the D'deridex lists its power bonuses as +10 in shields, +5 in aux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Well darn... I'm really going to have to consider how much I really want to buff that skill as well as finding out just how much of a buff that skill gets from particle gens at end game... really hate to invest in that skill basically just for the shockwave unless it makes it uber devastating.
Like any AoE, its power increases the more enemies it hits (Point Defense Console doesn't count. ). At level 26, PG at 61.5, I get an initial burst of 1103 damage, with a follow-up burn of 3309. With my Conservation of Energy exotic damage buff and the battle cloak damage buff, I can push that up to 1709 and 5128 respectively, with the latter completely bypassing shields. Hmmm...for the influence of PG, at level 25 going from 7.5 PG to 61.5, base damage jumped from 983 to 1091, and the afterburn from 2948 to 3272. If you're not planning on investing in other PG-boosted abilities, I wouldn't bother just for the sake of Plasma Shockwave. For my own (likely) build, I think I'll be getting a worthwhile benefit for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Also, I often find myself tanking no matter what I fly as I normally invest in threat control. I don't mind it, no matter what I'm in, escort, science vessel, or cruiser, i seem to be able to tank just about the same. But with my romulan I'm going to have to consider if I'm going to be a battle cloaking tank that can pop out for a minute when things get too rough so that I can quickly come back in and retake agro, or if I should put those points from threat control into stealth instead. I would have to really compromise my build to have both, so stealth, which would be more for pvp, or threat control, which would be more for pve? And would I even want to tank as a romulan? Hmm... choices... choices...
I haven't gotten far enough to be able to put points in stealth, so I don't know how good a return it is yet. I haven't yet been spotted by an NPC enemy, even when I've been practically scraping their hull. That might be the racial boost showing its effect.

For tanking, the Singularity's giving you a lot of options. Plasma Shockwave will likely be useful as a light AoE taunt to help pick up aggro quickly (I find shield-bypassing effects seem to generate more hate than more higher damage shield damaging effects, but that might just be my imagination), or maybe to punish enemies for cloaking too near you (Bonniekin, Bonniekin, all dressed in PLASMA!), plus there's the mysterious Singularity Overcharge. Quanum Absorption is pretty obvious in its usage, and I think you can pick up a core that gives you +20 all damage resist while it's active too (seems to be bugged, I have one of those cores and I don't see a change in my resistance numbers). When you're taking too much heat beyond what QA can do for you, use Warp Shadows if the enemy is further away, or Singularity Leap if they're nearer. The latter seems a bit more preferable if enemy proximity justifies it since it also debuffs accuracy, damage, AND perception (making it easier to slip on your cloak safely and making it less likely they can find you once you have it on).

...if you've been tanking all this time, I think you'd almost have to be crazy NOT to tank on a Romulan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Well no, each of the singularity powers may not be balanced against the other singularity powers equally, but if you view all the singularity powers as a whole, then I don't see the need to nit pick something like... you use overcharge almost all the time because the shockwave is only really better for taking out spam, or you rarely find yourself with the need to use the shadows, or the heal isn't as valuable to you as the damage bonus. But there are a few things to consider... one is that a different player who has a different style than you or a preference for a different type of content might find the abilities you find useless to be incredibly useful.

For example, you might find the damage buff of overcharge more useful than the heal because you have built your ship to better take a beating/heal itself with the skills from your boffs, so you don't need an extra heal. But someone else might build their ship so that it's weaker in the heals in exchange for a few nasty tricks, so they need the heal. Perhaps there's a difference in tactics where you prefer overcharge against spam instead of shockwave because you find it better to alpha the source of the spam rather than try to take out the spam, "Treat the illness, not the symptoms!" you say as you hammer a carrier head on ignoring their pets. Where someone else might find that they take too much damage in that approach and need to take out the pets so they can focus on the carrier, so they like the shockwave.

So yeah... I think it's difficult to decide which abilities are truly most useful, and again, when you take them as a whole instead of 5 different abilities that need to be equal for balance sake, I think it's a different picture. You use overcharge every chance you get and don't use singularity jump all that often... but it's there for you when and if you want it. Same for the other skills... that's just how I see it.
Hear hear! There's always more than one solution!

Another thought on the PS vs SOC, which you use may depend on whether you need to bring down or bypass shields; SOC sounds like it boosts your weapon damage, so if you have a lot of shields to burn through to get to the candy cent....er...hull, use SOC if you want to bring down the shields, PS if you want to get the damage in without mucking with the shields (I see a lot of near-dead-but-lots-of-shields Tholians scampering around Crystalling Catastrophe, for example).

(Did I mention I love PS's shield bypass? 'coz I do.)
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 583
04-26-2013, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
You are diffidently over reacting play their ships before you, you conclude that the singularity abilities > 40 loss of over all power. Some are useful sure but they are very very situational.
You're underestimating their potential. Also, even if they are situational, you should be constantly creating situations where they're useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
kdf and fed get warp cores that add to max power and have better mods overall Imo. Though i have yet to see very rare of either singularity or warp cores.
And THAT, I agree, is the biggest problem I'm currently having with the power levels. It's one thing to have warbirds start with -10 to all power levels, but it's rubbing salt into the wounds to go give the Feds/KDF warp cores that could give up to 12.5 power points (if I'm reading it right; +5 base, and then 7.5% power from one stat into another, giving up to 7.5 points of extra power to a second, lower-powered score). vs the Singularity which gives up to 7.5 points...at full singularity charge. When discharged and/or on cooldown it gives nothing.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 948
# 584
04-26-2013, 06:51 PM
Star Cruiser/Maurader Flight Deck Boff Slots for D'Deridex Retro is horrble. Just as bad as Gal-Retro. Assault Cruiser/Vor'Cha Boff Slots is fine. Ambassador/Kamarag is fine.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 585
04-26-2013, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
And THAT, I agree, is the biggest problem I'm currently having with the power levels. It's one thing to have warbirds start with -10 to all power levels, but it's rubbing salt into the wounds to go give the Feds/KDF warp cores that could give up to 12.5 power points (if I'm reading it right; +5 base, and then 7.5% power from one stat into another, giving up to 7.5 points of extra power to a second, lower-powered score). vs the Singularity which gives up to 7.5 points...at full singularity charge. When discharged and/or on cooldown it gives nothing.
One downside i see for feds is that if they choose the weapon power enhancer with the intention of full power to weapons with it boosting some other system, if it's based off of current power and not setting, then that power bonus to that second system is gonna be jumping all over the place once you start firing, lol.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 586
04-26-2013, 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
I'm just primarily concerned about dropping a new, untested cost and moving to a "been there, done that" cost, especially one that pushes the ship closer to an existing type (the "squishy battle cloak" raiders); we know how the -8% cost works already, I'd like to give the power level penalties a chance to see how much challenge it actually offers.
My thought on that is simply... why try to reinvent the wheel? I mean, sure, maybe the power levels will turn out fine or... better? than an 8% shield penalty, but... meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
As for "blow you up every time you use it in pvp", does the Defense stat really count for so little in PvP? (Not snarking, honest question; I have a crap internet connection and don't enjoy being lagged to death repeatedly, so I don't do PvP). The battle cloak's defensive buff kicks in immediately on trigger, I noticed, so I was hoping that would serve as some, well, defense until you broke LOS by completing the cloaking. Against NPCs I noticed that usually over 2/3rds of incoming attacks that were still en route when I popped the cloak missed.
I think pvpers tend to invest heavily into accuracy and accuracy buffing weapons, so they may land more hits than an NPC, plus 1/3 of some uber escort's damage is all that is needed to kill you without your shields, lol. Also, I'm not sure if the larger ships like the D'deridex will end up with a bonus to defense stat like bops have so... dunno if the defense will be comparable. But romulan trait is supposed to be bonus defense and bonus stealth or cloak cool time reduction (depending on which they have on them or their career as 've only seen the cloak cool on romulan tacs) so the boffs may help with not taking damage... unless there's a hard defense cap you're already at/near...



Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
For the power levels, you set them as you normally would, e.g. 100 to weapon, 50 to shield, 25 to eng and aux under the standard full weapons setting. In the ACTUAL power, though, each stat takes a factors in a -10 among its other factors, such as Warp Core Efficiency. (As a side note, efficiency looks at the amount of power you allocated, not what you actually get, so your efficiency bonus for a 25 Aux is calculated from 25, not 15. Alas.) Since the two "escort" warbirds (Dhelan and Mogai) also get a +10 to weapons and +5 to engines, you will get 100 power when you set your weapons to 100. I don't know if you can properly hit a baseline 125 weapon power, but it's within reach of achieving through temporary effects. Also, I like to point out my science vessel does a rather nice amount of DPS with only 45 weapon power.
Not sure how your science vessel manages that unless it's through space magic (sci skills) but then I've never managed to get sci skills to do meaningful damage, at least not when compared to an escort. And my concern is that, since weapon power dips once you open fire... a mechanic I hate... if you want the 125 dps your tool tip says you will do, you have to pour in like 145, if you want to do 100, you gotta put in 125. So not being able to get full weapon power in particular is just one super big... yeah... I really don't know how that's gonna go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
Oh, and the current entry for the D'deridex lists its power bonuses as +10 in shields, +5 in aux.
A WARbird gets bonus to shields and aux? really? -.- So not only are they subtracting 10 across the board but as a cruiser... which that seems to be the boff layout they're giving the D'deridex, it's not getting the full equivalent of +5 to each subsystem? It's fine to put +10 to weapons and +10 to shields or whatever combination, but that seems like a double gimp to only be giving the +15 on top of a -10 to everything... unless that's taking into consideration -5 to everything instead... Meh... I dunno. But I'd definitely prefer them stick the +10 or probably all +15 into the weapons instead since that's the only power system that suffers from constant yo-yos in power from being in combat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
I haven't gotten far enough to be able to put points in stealth, so I don't know how good a return it is yet. I haven't yet been spotted by an NPC enemy, even when I've been practically scraping their hull. That might be the racial boost showing its effect.
It's not so much for npc as it is for PVP npc aren't smart, they won't try to hunt you down or scan for you or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
For tanking, the Singularity's giving you a lot of options. Plasma Shockwave will likely be useful as a light AoE taunt to help pick up aggro quickly (I find shield-bypassing effects seem to generate more hate than more higher damage shield damaging effects, but that might just be my imagination), or maybe to punish enemies for cloaking too near you (Bonniekin, Bonniekin, all dressed in PLASMA!), plus there's the mysterious Singularity Overcharge. Quanum Absorption is pretty obvious in its usage, and I think you can pick up a core that gives you +20 all damage resist while it's active too (seems to be bugged, I have one of those cores and I don't see a change in my resistance numbers). When you're taking too much heat beyond what QA can do for you, use Warp Shadows if the enemy is further away, or Singularity Leap if they're nearer. The latter seems a bit more preferable if enemy proximity justifies it since it also debuffs accuracy, damage, AND perception (making it easier to slip on your cloak safely and making it less likely they can find you once you have it on).

...if you've been tanking all this time, I think you'd almost have to be crazy NOT to tank on a Romulan.
Well my thought was maybe I am supposed to be/would want to be stealthy and behind the scenes and not drawing attention... Meh, I dunno. could always respec if I found not having threat control to be super lame.[/quote]
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,672
# 587
04-26-2013, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
And THAT, I agree, is the biggest problem I'm currently having with the power levels. It's one thing to have warbirds start with -10 to all power levels, but it's rubbing salt into the wounds to go give the Feds/KDF warp cores that could give up to 12.5 power points (if I'm reading it right; +5 base, and then 7.5% power from one stat into another, giving up to 7.5 points of extra power to a second, lower-powered score). vs the Singularity which gives up to 7.5 points...at full singularity charge. When discharged and/or on cooldown it gives nothing.
It's +5 Max...not +5. Changes the cap from 125 to 130, but it doesn't give them the additional +5 in of itself.

The +7.5% for the Warp Core, can get kind of interesting when you run an Engineer with EPS Manifold Efficiency, a Warp Core Engineer DOFF, a Maintenance Engineer DOFF, EPS Power Transfer, and Plasmonic Leech...


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 802
# 588
04-26-2013, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainbmoney View Post
Star Cruiser/Maurader Flight Deck Boff Slots for D'Deridex Retro is horrble. Just as bad as Gal-Retro. Assault Cruiser/Vor'Cha Boff Slots is fine. Ambassador/Kamarag is fine.
I think giving the D'deridex the ambassador layout would be a nice tip of the hat to them having captured and undoubtedly studied the enterprise C. Plus it would be a nicely balanced build of eng, science, and tac. Give the higher sci slot to at least do some of what the npc D'deridex can do like so many people say they want. Yup yup, I 'd be very happy with an ambassador boff layout.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 589
04-26-2013, 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's +5 Max...not +5. Changes the cap from 125 to 130, but it doesn't give them the additional +5 in of itself.

The +7.5% for the Warp Core, can get kind of interesting when you run an Engineer with EPS Manifold Efficiency, a Warp Core Engineer DOFF, a Maintenance Engineer DOFF, EPS Power Transfer, and Plasmonic Leech...
Very interesting on the raising the cap...my test characters on Tribble don't have much dilithium so I couldn't buy one to try it.

As for the +7.5%, I suspect that's going to be (like efficiency) based on how much you allocated, not what the result is. With efficiency, if you set your power level to 25, efficiency calculates its bonus at 25, even if you've managed to jack it up over that (well, pretty sure). If the core bonus works the same way, then they can guarantee the max power you'll get out of it is 7.5 points (that would also deal with yo-yo-ing power levels from W->X cores).
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 590
04-26-2013, 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I think giving the D'deridex the ambassador layout would be a nice tip of the hat to them having captured and undoubtedly studied the enterprise C.

o_O Just for that reason, I'll agree with this. You have my vote.
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