Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,882
# 761
05-03-2013, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amosov78 View Post
Not really relevant to the conversation, but more of a general thought about STO's space combat: The problem is that none of these things; the battlecloak; the singularity powers, and the tactics that may evolve around them, are necessary to our survival in 95% of the PvE combat, at any difficultly level.

You can just do the same old thing over and over with any ship in STO, and be successful. It's a shame that this has become the case, because back in STO's closed beta every space battle I took part in was a life and death struggle; where the outcome of success was dependent on what speed I was going, what my position was in relation to the enemy ship, and what abilities and batteries I clicked at exactly the right time. Now, I'm not a hardcore kind of gamer, but to me that was the most fun I'd had in an MMO up to that point.

Back then these things meant something, now these days I can literally park my ship at zero velocity, point in the direction of the enemy ship and mark time until they're dead. The only way new powers/abilities and gameplay styles in STO are going to be taken more seriously is if they are absolutely necessary to our survival in any given situation.
You actually remember a time when it wasn't like that?

Frankly, the fact that we are allowed to die 3 trillion times doesn't help at all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, lovely, I can't even requote the Douglas Adams quote I used to have here I WANT IT BACK!!!!
Dalo Lorn
DaloLorn, StarCraft 2 Roleplayer and proud of it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 702
# 762
05-03-2013, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
Psst...ally ships...lockboxes.
Psst... ally ships are only viable from T1 to T4. There are No T5 ally ships for Romulans. Why do you insist on bringing it up. Also lockbox ships are expensive and shouldnt be a fix



Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
So, as virusdancer pointed out, EVERYTHING is a gimmick.

Fleet holdings? We got along fine without it before, gimmick, worthless, toss it out.
Reputation? We got along fine without it before, gimmick, worthless, toss it out.
DOff system? We got along fine without it before, gimmick, worthless, toss it out.
Yes. They are. But NO ONE HAS SAID THE SINGULARITY SYSTEM SHOULD BE REMOVED COMPLETELY! (well... I certainly havent, someone else may have.)

If I so choose, I can avoid using every system you listed above. I dont have to have DOffs, I dont have to grind Reputation. I dont have to be in a fleet.

But if I want to fly a warbird, I have to use this system. I dont get a choice. Thats wrong. Especially for a new system such as this. Its a special feature for the sake of having a special feature, and its shoehorned in, especially because the Romulans never displayed anything similar to this in the shows. So... why are we making stuff up for them here?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
And the reason I'm opposed to there being the option of using a warp core instead is because new systems like this need intertia to survive. Without a critical mass of players using a system, it will not get properly developed or balanced, and it is in serious danger of being cut out entirely. If too many people just ignore the system and take the easy, bog-standard, everybody's-doing-it warp core route, they cannot justify putting resources and time into developing the singularity system properly, and could well abandon it. It's not even out yet, for crying out loud. And this is why I have to keep arguing against the "I don't wanna use it" people, precisely for the same reason you're arguing against singularity system. "The devs should hear my opinion." Great. Same here. I don't want the only thing the devs hear to be "I don't want to use it"; I want them also to hear "it looks good, I like it." I want them to keep it alive so I can try it and test it at level 50, properly geared, in eSTFs, so I can see how it REALLY shines or fails.
Thats great. I'm not saying you shouldnt also provide your feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
You have been given an out. You do not HAVE to use this system, but it will require you to invest something. If you are so vehemently opposed to using the singularity system, put your dilithium where your mouth is and fly an ally's ship, or a lockbox ship at tier 5.
I shouldnt have to. Plain and simple. I should be able to roll a new Romulan character and opt out of the system and still be able to fly a warbird. (just like I can opt out of using the DOff system or the Fleet system or the Reputation system). And you know what... if Im able to do that its only good for Cryptic, because Im more likely to buy Romulan CStore items. As it is... Im not rolling a Romulan, and I'm not buying Romulan CStore stuff. Theyve effectively lost my money completely. And no... I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm going to hurt Cryptic but not buying things...

Saying: "Oh you can fly ally or lockbox ships." is not acceptable.

Lockbox ships are ludicrously expensive.

And ally ships only go so far. And they cost precious dilithium, which I have barely enough of on my main to do things I want to do on that character.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 147
# 763
05-03-2013, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We're still testing possible ways of tweaking the Cloaking, power levels, singularity, etc. to ensure that the Romulans have a fun - and balanced - gameplay experience. None of the tuning points you're seeing in Beta are necessarily final.

The current iteration of Romulan Battle Cloak isn't intended to be a nerf to compensate for the Romulan racial trait. Rather, it comes from feedback from our internal testing, which indicated that Romulan ships were getting far too survivable compared to other factions when taking into account all their abilities.

Romulan Battle Cloak is, by default, harder to detect than Klingon Battle Cloaking - and only becomes easier to detect if you cloak at a high singularity level (roughly 60%) or higher. This is not taking into account the Romulan racial bonus to Cloaking, which makes it even harder to detect.

With these factors taken into consideration, as well as the added defensive capabilities of Singularity abilities, it was proving to be too easy to for Romulan ships to escape from combat without risk.

We still see Romulans as being experts at Cloaking technology, and that's why all their Warbirds have Battle Cloak and such a high base Stealth value. From a game mechanics standpoint, though, we still have to make sure they are properly balanced against other factions.

We are constantly discussing and testing different types of changes internally. Balance is an iterative process, and any time any type of ship has disadvantages when compared to another ship, *someone* is going to be disappointed.

If we give Romulans cloaking that is just better than Klingon cloaking in every way, there has to be a cost associated with that to maintain balance. As it stands, the base power level differences between Warbirds and other ships have not, in our testing, proven sufficient to compensate for both having a globally superior Cloak with no disadvantages and access to all of the Singularity powers. We may end up reverting to the 40 base power that all Warbirds used to have and giving the Romulans a globally superior cloak, or we might end up balancing these things in other ways - it's still an open discussion on the design team. We are paying close attention to player feedback and appreciate your comments.
I admit that a Warbird has to pay in some way for its cloak, no doubt, but the Singularity "Powers" are a joke. At least the ones up to T4. The powers are definetly not worth the price you have to pay for it. The only more or less usefull Power is the Heal.

Why is there no click option to prevent the Singularity Core from charging? I mean it stops charging also when it is full. Basically if i want a effective cloak (not that it would matter in pve anyways it is only a pvp issue).
With the latest patch we have to use the singularity power before cloaking to get a more effective cloak, but then we have to deal with a 5 sec global cd for the cloak.

And i just can repeat myslef here, the singularity skills + the cloak are not worht a permanent -10 to all subsystems.

Not to mention the Power bonus disadvantage of a Singularity core compared to a warpcore which gives the full core powerbonus basically all the time, cause you can be sure that ppl will choose the warpcore that way that the system on which the powerbonus is based is the subsystem that runs at max power at 99% of the time.

With the singularity core you only get the power bonus when the core is fully charged. so in total you have even more powerdifference then you already have from the subsystem power penalty.

I would really like to know how you guys testing ships and skillchanges. I am pretty sure that your aproach could use some heavy improvements, otherwise i can`t explain some of the changes you made. ((last big fail were the resistences you get with "Power Insulators").

But ok, if the romulan ships have to much drawbacks compared to their benefits i just won?t roll a romulan char.
Reynolds / Thokal

U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys

Last edited by captainforfun; 05-03-2013 at 04:04 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 764
05-03-2013, 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We're still testing possible ways of tweaking the Cloaking, power levels, singularity, etc. to ensure that the Romulans have a fun - and balanced - gameplay experience. None of the tuning points you're seeing in Beta are necessarily final.

The current iteration of Romulan Battle Cloak isn't intended to be a nerf to compensate for the Romulan racial trait. Rather, it comes from feedback from our internal testing, which indicated that Romulan ships were getting far too survivable compared to other factions when taking into account all their abilities.

Romulan Battle Cloak is, by default, harder to detect than Klingon Battle Cloaking - and only becomes easier to detect if you cloak at a high singularity level (roughly 60%) or higher. This is not taking into account the Romulan racial bonus to Cloaking, which makes it even harder to detect.

With these factors taken into consideration, as well as the added defensive capabilities of Singularity abilities, it was proving to be too easy to for Romulan ships to escape from combat without risk.

We still see Romulans as being experts at Cloaking technology, and that's why all their Warbirds have Battle Cloak and such a high base Stealth value. From a game mechanics standpoint, though, we still have to make sure they are properly balanced against other factions.

We are constantly discussing and testing different types of changes internally. Balance is an iterative process, and any time any type of ship has disadvantages when compared to another ship, *someone* is going to be disappointed.

If we give Romulans cloaking that is just better than Klingon cloaking in every way, there has to be a cost associated with that to maintain balance. As it stands, the base power level differences between Warbirds and other ships have not, in our testing, proven sufficient to compensate for both having a globally superior Cloak with no disadvantages and access to all of the Singularity powers. We may end up reverting to the 40 base power that all Warbirds used to have and giving the Romulans a globally superior cloak, or we might end up balancing these things in other ways - it's still an open discussion on the design team. We are paying close attention to player feedback and appreciate your comments.
My question is: How exactly do you know warbirds are too survivable? Do you have some metric that's showing players dying less in space combat in a warbird than they seem to in other ships? And have you compared the survival of these ships vs their combat efficiency? Sure, you can battle cloak and thus avoid the respawn timer, but you have to wait around cloaked for your ship to passively heal (heal abilities aren't available while cloaked) or you have to run out of range, decloak, heal up, and come back in. And if that is the case, I don't really see a problem with the ships technically dying less. Unless, of course, you are concerned that all that work you did making their special singularity breach animation when they blow up won't be getting as much screen time as you had hoped.

Additionally, are you taking into consideration the skill level of the players you've allowed into closed beta? The people in the closed beta might be more skilled on average than the majority of players who will be popping into warbirds on may 21st, if that's the case, if you make it hard for the skilled players to stay alive in a warbird, your average players may toss LoR right out the airlock because warbirds blow up too easily. So... just hoping whatever data you're using to make these assessments takes context into consideration.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 21
# 765
05-03-2013, 05:21 PM
You wanted Romulan ships to revolve around the singularity and the cloaking device. You keep promoting the cloaking device as a way to counteract the low turn rates of larger ships. And then you nerf the cloaking cooldown to 40 seconds. 30 with the trait to reduce cooldown. I'll put it as nicely as I can: This is stupid. I dont know where the idea that a cloak would have a cooldown at all, but I've been accepting of that because its an MMO, and EVERYTHING in an MMO has a cooldown, even if it shouldnt. You say that cloaking is helping people survive. In case you've forgotten, Cloaking lowers your shields. Yes it helps you survive IF you dont explode during those few seconds where you have no defense. Cloaking in combat is actually dangerous, not something that enhances survivability. But now we cant even play that high risk, high reward playstyle you've been touting so much with the Romulans because we can only cloak every 40 seconds! Thats so long its useless. Might as well just take battle cloak away if you're going to do that, because it amounts to the same thing as having a standard cloak. You say you're still tweaking, Devs? I hope so, because not only is this useless, but it destroys the play style you've been trying to sell us.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 766
05-03-2013, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veepnova View Post
*snip*
If I'm not mistaken, they already posted saying that they have restored the cloak to 20 seconds and instead are bringing the warbird power levels back down to a base of 40 instead of the 45 they buffed it to. It may not have been patched into tribble yet, but it's supposed to be on the way.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 21
# 767
05-03-2013, 09:07 PM
Thats possible. I didnt read through every page today, just the last two, and just saw some complaining about it, and felt like adding my two cents.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 768
05-03-2013, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
If I'm not mistaken, they already posted saying that they have restored the cloak to 20 seconds and instead are bringing the warbird power levels back down to a base of 40 instead of the 45 they buffed it to. It may not have been patched into tribble yet, but it's supposed to be on the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veepnova View Post
Thats possible. I didnt read through every page today, just the last two, and just saw some complaining about it, and felt like adding my two cents.
That patch is going live right now, actually.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 462
# 769
05-03-2013, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Incorrect. Full singularity charge is (going to be) the equivalent of having 55 base power. The downside is that using a singularity power drops that down to 40 base power.
Ok I think some people miss understood what he meant singularity cores have a +___ power to one subsystem based on what type of singularity core you have. So you can get singularity core that give aux +15 at max power. Before it was only 7.5 and 0 at no singularity power.

I disagree on it being OP to having 50 normalize power at full singularity charge. Becuase you have to remember it take awhile to charge to 5 and it drains quickly after going into cloak becuase you drop out of combat pretty quickly, and once you use the power for the situation you loose all that gain.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 770
05-03-2013, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
I disagree on it being OP to having 50 normalize power at full singularity charge. Becuase you have to remember it take awhile to charge to 5 and it drains quickly after going into cloak becuase you drop out of combat pretty quickly, and once you use the power for the situation you loose all that gain.
It is COMPLETELY overpowered, because at that point you are equal to any Klingon or Fed captain, except for having a Battle Cloak and all five singularity powers available at full charge. How on earth is that fair that Romulan captains can spend as long as they like at "full charge", with six powers that are not available at all to Fed captains? So WHAT if they take a hit after they use the singularity, or drop a bit when they use their cloak? This is not balanced. This is OP.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:19 PM.