Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,932
# 811
05-05-2013, 06:49 PM
lets have an honest evaluation of the warbirds from a pve point of view. depending on your presets, at low character levels you can have engine power so low you crawl, or shield power so low it doesn't regenerate, wile you try to maximize weapons power. really... that never was much of a problem actually, i dont even need to run EPtS in any of the pve. the pve is so easy that you can have 2 hands tied behind your back and still do fine.

wile running through the pi cantis sorties 100 times to level on elite dificulty, the healing singularity power with the temperarry hitpoints has saved me several times, and so has the phantom ship ability, drawing agro away from those fed escorts with the point defense console that has like 20,000 DPS for some insane reason.

the plasma shockwave does basically nothing, no npc lives long enough for some DOT to mater, and the initial damage has no noticeable effect on enemy shields no mater the singularity level. npcs are hitpoint sponges after all, but i cant even see this as being worth much in pvp. maybe as a spam object clearer but thats it. then you lose out on useing a skill that actually does something for a good wile. compared to a stranded plasma torp fireing every 8 seconds, applying a dot, and even compared to that the shock wave with its rate of fire is doing nothing. this being on the same system cooldowns as the other singularity skills is kinda laughable. this should proboly be a new BOFF ability that can be used as often as PSW. and in their infinite fun hateing wisdom, they castrated all DOT builds by taking away plasma infuser's ability to buff all forms of plasma damage. so buffing this skill any significant amount aint going to happen. im still far from level cap with a filled out skill try though, so i suppose all particle buffed it might do something, but im doubting.

the singularity + jump the d'deridex has looks like the perfect weapon against siphon drones or interceptors, maybe runabouts too. any swarm of spam thats pinning you down will be delt with by that, plus you can jump and face your target. not terribly useful in pve, but im gonna like this in pvp.

cant comment on the ha'apax overcharge yet


the romulans will get by the power disadvantage just fine by end game. so why even have the power disadvantage? well, for pvp it will make a difference, and is an important balancing measure. battle cloak has almost no use in pve, it can be sorta fun to use, but changes little. in pvp it will be very powerful. so in the end the warbirds have a few gimicks that are sorta fun for pve, but are hardly game changing, and like always every little thing can make a big difference in pvp. im glad they are trying to balance for pvp here, once again. but not all is perfect...



frankly, the hitpoins on all the romulan ships are too high for having the battle cloak. ether that, or the bird of preys need a significant balance pass. i think both proboly. the lower power isn't to critical, and balances out the singularity powers. but the warbirds have federation ship hitpoints with battle cloak. maybe the warbirds need to be given the same treatment that fleet ships get, but instead of +10% to everything, -10% instead.

as far as KDF bops go, universal station setups? big deal, theres an escort that has every one of a bop's good station setups, plus an extra ENS station, more hitpoints, and enough turn so its not at any disadvantage. the one big deal thing the bops have is the turn rate that allows them to keep their weapons to bare the most. but thats becomes less and less important since they dont have the hitpoints to hang out in combat for longer then their battle cloak cooldown. the best strategy for them is to go for insta kills, which you dont need turn rate to even do, even a galaxy X can sorta do that. the greatest insult to injury to the raiders by the warbirds, is that the T'Varo is better then the defiant in EVERY way, and not only has a battle cloak, but an ENHANCED battlecloak, something the brel practically sells its soul for.that ship ether needs to look a lot more like the brel stat wise, or lose the enhanced battle cloak. i say lose the enhanced.

i think the best way to balance the romulan ships is to do a balance pass on everything else, is this a major expansion or isnt it? start here, with a turn rate floor rebalance-http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9301751&postcount=33. then big kdf bops a universal ENS and like 15% more hitpoints and beter shield mod, but take away 1 turn rate. could say that the kdf upgraded them and made them more durable, but at a minor maneuverability expense. i suppose thats enough for now
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 812
05-05-2013, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neok182 View Post
Don't think you actually read my post.
And what was the core of the thesis? The central point of the post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neok182 View Post
40 power levels is just too low. Unless the singularity powers are very powerful and really worth using, which they're not, then 40 is just too much of a hit, especially for those of us who are just going to use the healing power since the other ones are really not worth it and vastly underpowered to our weapons. and add in the -10 to weapons power and we are now vastly inferior to any FED or KDF player. PVP is essentially ruined for Romulans since they'll never keep their DPS up with FED or KDF thanks to the -10 power. And even PVE will be difficult since as most of us have seen the singularity powers are not that effective even at max power against most normal enemies meaning that even at level 50 say doing elite stfs they'll be pretty useless and we'll all just be using the healing power
This is the point I'm addressing, and everything else you said follows from this point: -10 to each subsystem is too much, and the singularity is effectively useless. If this argument is invalid, then the rest of your post (suggested fixes) is unnecessary.

My counterargument has, and will likely continue to be, people are continually doing the following:

1.) trying to fly their Warbird as if it was their regular ship with an extra "virtual" BOff (the singularity powers) and a cloak, and

2.) underestimating, misunderstanding, or disregarding the singularity power, considering them as "useless" or "a gimmick".

For issue 1, people need to start realizing that they're completely missing the point. Their argument comes off like saying "iPods are terrible! I tried to drive a nail with it and it broke on the first one!" It's understandable that you want to use your hard-earned expertise with existing systems to try to make a new one work, but when it fails (like it's failing for everyone relying on their standard builds which rely on standard power levels) the proper response is "how can I make good use of the tools I've got"...not to demand Apple redesign the iPod to be turned into some variant of the hammer you've already got.

Which brings us to point 2. The singularity powers are potent, but as many have pointed out they're rather situational. Again, the proper response here is NOT "I don't face those situations, therefore they're useless, therefore the system has to be changed," but rather "how can I CREATE those situations where they're most devastating?" I've been talking tactics a lot here, power combos, setting up situations, building around strengths...and nobody's listening. One of the latest posts got the reply "well what if I don't want to use those powers?" I dunno, come up with your own combos then? I'm not your dang mother. If you don't want a group of enemies trapped in your Gravity Well + Singularity Jump combo, getting chewed up by the GW, blinded by the SJ, and well within radius of one another to soak up all the splash damage from all those Torp Spread 3 volleys coming in, then fine, come up with something else. But if your "something else" isn't enhancing or taking advantage of one of your core powers, you're probably going to be in for a bad time of it. Ignoring them, or pretending Quantum Absorption is the only one with any value, is a recipe for disaster.

Finally, you can start building your ship to mitigate some of those weaknesses. The iconic TOS T'liss demonstrated how effective warbirds can be with torpedos...which neither need nor drain weapon power. Nor do mines. With plasma, even if your energy weapons aren't up to draining shields quickly, your plasma fire will bypass and start eating into the hull. Engineers will probably have a field day in warbirds, as they have access to that lovely new trait that boosts all their power levels whenever they use any battery or EPtX skill, and since Warbirds always have at least three battery slots, that's a fair number of batteries they can bring to bear on their power issues. And so on, and so on. Also as I've said, we haven't even seen everything that's planned. The more we see, the more we'll realize that we've got all the tools we need to make killer warbirds...as long as we're willing to use them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 503
# 813
05-05-2013, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
It's pretty much a non-starter to suggest nerfing the battle cloak in any way, shape, or form. If the battle cloak takes any longer than 20 seconds to cool, it might as well not even be there considering how fast paced combat is in this game. The romulans are known for their cloak and dagger and in and out of cloak tactics, romulans are all about cloak. Reducing the effectiveness of the cloak by up to 50 percent is ridiculous and also defeats the purpose of it. A D'deridex and Ha'apax are massive and slow, so they are already going to be easy enough to stay on top of once they battle cloak, let alone with a 50% less effective battle cloak, so all around, nerfing romulan battle cloak is a no go.

I agree that balancing the battle cloak first and then balancing the singularity powers makes sense, and, as I've said before, we've seen from the peghqu and the chimera that a battle cloak apparently only warrants an 8% drop in shield modifier, as these two ships are identical, except the peghqu has 8% lower shields and a battle cloak. So lets not reinvent the wheel on this one, give the romulan ships 8% lower shields or take it out of their hull, but lets not go crazy.

And let us keep in mind that the "increased surviveability" a battle cloak provides comes at a cost. With battle cloak, you might escape destruction, but you can't do damage while cloaked, you can't actively heal while cloaked, and shields don't regenerate while cloaked, which means you have to run off and decloak to heal and come back, or spend a great deal of time while cloaked to let your hull passively repair, but you won't get any shields back. And keep in mind that all this time, the enemy has a chance to actively heal, so the enemy's surviveability also goes up. Plus there's the very real chance that attempting to battle cloak is exactly the opening the enemy needs to blast you out of the sky.

That leaves balancing the singularity powers... which is admittedly difficult. They are essentially one power, because you can only use one of them when you get a charge, but they do provide the versatility of being able to choose which power you use. However, they are not reliably available. The singularity does not constantly charge, it only charges while in combat and loses charge out of combat and stops charging while cloaked. Which is why I don't see the point in high singularity charge reducing the effectiveness of your cloak... the two of them already rub each other the wrong way because the cloak stops singularity charging.

Unfortunately, I'm not even sure what to suggest for balancing this because it is so complicated a thing.
Really can't disagree with anything.

And speaking of the 'increased survivability' that cryptic keeps talking about, nerf the hull. That's really the solution to everything. boost the power levels, and nerf the hull

The B'rel retrofit has 21000 hull.

The Dhelan retrofit is very similar, though it has an extra boff, 3rd rear weapon, less turn, about 5 times the crew, extra device slot, and 31500 hull.

So were looking at a ship that easily puts the b'rel to shame. 10.5k extra hull, extra weapon, more crew, extra device, AND the singularity powers. Now compared to a fed escort it actually has less hull, but still more crew, extra device, and singularity.

I'd gladly take a 25% hit in hull if it meant boosting the powers back up. And honestly, if you want to balance the ships and reduce the survivability, hull is what needs to change as evident just in comparing the b'rel and dhelan.

ACCESS DENIED
U.S.S. Gipsy Danger | U.S.S. Gunstar | U.S.S. Oswin
R.R.W. Coronatus | R.R.W. Valar Morghulis
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 814
05-05-2013, 08:21 PM
Let me say up front, I'm NOT touching PvP applications on this; I will say freely, my ISP sucks so I don't bother trying PvP, I'll have to rely on your own expertise to consider the PvP applications for this info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the plasma shockwave does basically nothing
Just tossing some numbers out from lvl 50, science officer. 102 points total in particle gen. Damage listed as [blast]/[DoT], rank 5 (rank 1 is about half that)

Plain: 1528 / 4586
With decloak bonus: 1910 / 5732
With Conservation of Energy: 1987 / 5962
With CoE AND decloak: 2369 / 7108

Even if you assume stripped shields, that's still not going to take out, say, a Danube, but it'll certainly help, and hit up to 10 of the little buggers. Not a perfect spam solution, admittedly. Probably more useful vs large torps. Can be enhanced to have a 10% chance to disable one subsystem, but that's too little chance to bother with.

Given that it's the only one that's affected by exotic damage boosts, I think it's primarily there to give science officers more oomph to their arsenal, but it really does not age well or scale well with level.

Dangit, I forgot to check if that's including the bonus from the Romulan Energy Harness for plasma damage. Actual numbers might be lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the singularity + jump the d'deridex has looks like the perfect weapon against siphon drones or interceptors, maybe runabouts too. any swarm of spam thats pinning you down will be delt with by that, plus you can jump and face your target. not terribly useful in pve, but im gonna like this in pvp.
The real power of the Singularity Jump is in the Accuracy and Perception debuff; if you've got a good cluster of enemies (preferably ones slowed in some fashion already, such as by warp plasma) you can keep them blind til they move away from it. And if you can arrange a Gravity Well (yours or someone else's) where you drop the Singularity Jump, I don't know if they CAN get away from it. PVE enemies generally don't unless they were at the edge of the effect already. But yeah, will give you enough time to cloak, spin, and decloak without having to worry about attacks from those in the SJ effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
cant comment on the ha'apax overcharge yet
Since I haven't been relying on energy weapons so much, and certainly not the HCs and DHCs favored by escorts, I'm rather underwhelmed by the Overcharge, but I think those wanting the Raider/Escort playstyle will like it. It looks like it overwrites FAW, so it probably replaces Cannon Rapid Fire and Cannon Spray with its buff. It jacks up damage AND seems to remove weapon fire drain for the duration. For someone on a heavy energy weapon build, they'll probably find plenty of use for it; for myself, not so much. The description says it HAS to be used from cloak, but it appears to be lying, as it seems to work regardless of cloakedness.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 733
# 815
05-05-2013, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
frankly, the hitpoins on all the romulan ships are too high for having the battle cloak. ether that, or the bird of preys need a significant balance pass. i think both proboly. the lower power isn't to critical, and balances out the singularity powers. but the warbirds have federation ship hitpoints with battle cloak. maybe the warbirds need to be given the same treatment that fleet ships get, but instead of +10% to everything, -10% instead.
Warbirds have federation strength hulls because they have federation (actually worse) turn rates. The thicker your hull, the lower your turn rate, it has nothing to do with the battle cloak. As I have said before, the peghqu and the chimera are carbon copies of one another on fed and kdf side, the one difference is that the peghqu has a battle cloak, and apparently the compensation for that is -8% shield modifier. The devs have apparently chosen to compensate for both the battle cloak and the singularity powers by giving warbirds lower power levels. That means lower damage, lower shields, lower turn/speed and lower heals/sci skills. Warbirds don't need their hulls and shield modifiers nerfed on top of that.

Bops have such weak hulls because they have such high turn rates. I presume the slightly lower shield modifier when compared to a raptor is payment for the battle cloak, and one less aft weapon and loss of an ensign boff to compensate for all universal seating. Yes, there are escorts/raptors out there with good boff setups, but the bop is versatile without needing to switch from one ship or another to change tactics, so don't underestimate the value of that.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 733
# 816
05-05-2013, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neok182 View Post
Really can't disagree with anything.

And speaking of the 'increased survivability' that cryptic keeps talking about, nerf the hull. That's really the solution to everything. boost the power levels, and nerf the hull

The B'rel retrofit has 21000 hull.

The Dhelan retrofit is very similar, though it has an extra boff, 3rd rear weapon, less turn, about 5 times the crew, extra device slot, and 31500 hull.

So were looking at a ship that easily puts the b'rel to shame. 10.5k extra hull, extra weapon, more crew, extra device, AND the singularity powers. Now compared to a fed escort it actually has less hull, but still more crew, extra device, and singularity.

I'd gladly take a 25% hit in hull if it meant boosting the powers back up. And honestly, if you want to balance the ships and reduce the survivability, hull is what needs to change as evident just in comparing the b'rel and dhelan.

I think that the increased surviveability translates literally into seeing the respawn timer less, but what we have to look at is: what is the cost of this surviveability? Do people not die as much, but still take more time to complete the mission because they had to run off and heal before coming back, which also gives the enemy time to heal? If so, that increase in surviveability is compensated for by the healing the enemy does and taking more time in the mission. That kind of survivability does not need to be 'balanced" or corrected. There's nothing wrong with that.

A 25% reduction in hull on a D'deridex would give one the hull of an escort and the turn of a carrier... that's an absolute no go, lol. I think the reduced power levels will ultimately be manageable. A few things they could do to make them more palatable though would be to remove the "shields don't regenerate below 25 power" since warbirds will drop below that. I really wish they would also remove the power drain from weapons, that way one does not have to pour 145 power into weapons just to consistently get 125 ish. They may have to rebalance weapon damage to compensate, but I think it would be preferable. They could also stand to buff engineering power enhancing consoles, it would be better for all factions, but in particular, a warbird could pop on a energy enhancer to whichever system they feel most needs the compensation. Once the power consoles are buffed, they could add a new console that gives bonus power across the board. So, for example, one could put +12 to one system, or with the new console, +3 to all power levels. (I use those more conservative numbers as I doubt they would go for +20 to a subsystem and +5 to all consoles... but that would be appreciated. )

Given current crew mechanics, I would not call the Dhelan having a larger crew an "advantage" lol. All those extra crew will die/get a paper cut and go on strike just as quickly if not more so than a bop's crew and will take a year longer to get back to work than a bop's small crew.

I think the reasons why the devs are fine giving such a powerful escort type vessel an enhanced battle cloak because, if I"m not mistaken, it has very few science and engineering abilities available to it. So unlike a brel that has universals for high science and eng powers while also spamming torps and mines, this ship just has high tactical abilities for torps and mines only. Of course, the brel can go tac heavy too, the universals give it that versatility, but the Dhelan is stuck in tactical mode. So in theory I don't think it will be that big of a deal, or steal any, or at least not too much, of the brel's thunder, but we shall have to see.

I don't think the Dhelan will be able to use singularity powers while enhanced battle cloaked, battle cloak prevents the singularity from charging... so those would only be available should it choose to stay in the fight and not use enhanced battle cloak... so I don't really find that OP either.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 503
# 817
05-05-2013, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I think that the increased surviveability translates literally into seeing the respawn timer less, but what we have to look at is: what is the cost of this surviveability? Do people not die as much, but still take more time to complete the mission because they had to run off and heal before coming back, which also gives the enemy time to heal? If so, that increase in surviveability is compensated for by the healing the enemy does and taking more time in the mission. That kind of survivability does not need to be 'balanced" or corrected. There's nothing wrong with that.

A 25% reduction in hull on a D'deridex would give one the hull of an escort and the turn of a carrier... that's an absolute no go, lol. I think the reduced power levels will ultimately be manageable. A few things they could do to make them more palatable though would be to remove the "shields don't regenerate below 25 power" since warbirds will drop below that. I really wish they would also remove the power drain from weapons, that way one does not have to pour 145 power into weapons just to consistently get 125 ish. They may have to rebalance weapon damage to compensate, but I think it would be preferable. They could also stand to buff engineering power enhancing consoles, it would be better for all factions, but in particular, a warbird could pop on a energy enhancer to whichever system they feel most needs the compensation. Once the power consoles are buffed, they could add a new console that gives bonus power across the board. So, for example, one could put +12 to one system, or with the new console, +3 to all power levels. (I use those more conservative numbers as I doubt they would go for +20 to a subsystem and +5 to all consoles... but that would be appreciated. )

Given current crew mechanics, I would not call the Dhelan having a larger crew an "advantage" lol. All those extra crew will die/get a paper cut and go on strike just as quickly if not more so than a bop's crew and will take a year longer to get back to work than a bop's small crew.

I think the reasons why the devs are fine giving such a powerful escort type vessel an enhanced battle cloak because, if I"m not mistaken, it has very few science and engineering abilities available to it. So unlike a brel that has universals for high science and eng powers while also spamming torps and mines, this ship just has high tactical abilities for torps and mines only. Of course, the brel can go tac heavy too, the universals give it that versatility, but the Dhelan is stuck in tactical mode. So in theory I don't think it will be that big of a deal, or steal any, or at least not too much, of the brel's thunder, but we shall have to see.

I don't think the Dhelan will be able to use singularity powers while enhanced battle cloaked, battle cloak prevents the singularity from charging... so those would only be available should it choose to stay in the fight and not use enhanced battle cloak... so I don't really find that OP either.
Good point, we really don't know exactly what they mean by that. and the greater hull, healing and more eng/sci boffs will give more healing, though -10 weapons means that it'll take longer to kill enemies. Though if you use plasma you can get an extra 17.2% damage with the 2 piece weapon/console set and a plasma infused fleet console which should help offset the lower weapon power. Tetryon also gets a 7.6% boost with the new tholian rep items that could offset it a little bit.

Obviously hull reduction depends on the ship. The Mogai, Dhelan and T'Varo for instance have really high hulls for escort/birdofprey type ships, but as you also mention the b'rel has full universal slots to make up for it.

Your idea for a console is pretty much similar to my idea for a fleet singularity core that would add power to all 4 systems. I personally love my idea of a +7.5 power in each system for max singularity, which is similar to what they have now but it's only one system, have a unique or fleet one that would give it to all 4, though possibly add a drawback to make up for it.

good point with the crew, they are useless. lol

ACCESS DENIED
U.S.S. Gipsy Danger | U.S.S. Gunstar | U.S.S. Oswin
R.R.W. Coronatus | R.R.W. Valar Morghulis
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,186
# 818
05-05-2013, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i think the best way to balance the romulan ships is to do a balance pass on everything else
Yep, yup, yep...kind of hard to balance something new against something old when the old isn't quite balanced...

...even what's been said about trying to balance Romulan Cloaking against what's currently there - well, what's currently there...Cryptic's already been looking at addressing that.

So should they address that first - then balance against that...
...or should they not address that, try to balance against that, then maybe/maybe not ever get around to addressing it and then having to readdress the Romulan stealth?

Fun stuff...fun stuff...if you like hitting your thumb with the hammer instead of the nail.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 733
# 819
05-05-2013, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neok182 View Post
Your idea for a console is pretty much similar to my idea for a fleet singularity core that would add power to all 4 systems. I personally love my idea of a +7.5 power in each system for max singularity, which is similar to what they have now but it's only one system, have a unique or fleet one that would give it to all 4, though possibly add a drawback to make up for it.

good point with the crew, they are useless. lol
If I am not mistaken, they have bumped it up from 7.5 to 15. It starts at 5 and goes to 15 with full charge. I've heard that the devs said they don't plan to put in a core that gives a bonus to weapons because everyone would take that core, so instead, they could put in a balanced core that gives +5 to shields, engines, and aux instead of 15 to one system so that one could choose to have all their bonus to one system or spread the love. But I still think those engineering power booster consoles need a real big buff to be worth anything at all. As it stands, rcs and neutronium (though some use other armors too) are the only eng consoles sane people use. The emergency force fields barely do anything to crew death/disable the power boosters barely give anything, EPS isn't necessary anymore now that weapon power drain springs back to normal after each volley, and structural integrity field generators increase hull heal, but as the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 733
# 820
05-05-2013, 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Yep, yup, yep...kind of hard to balance something new against something old when the old isn't quite balanced...

...even what's been said about trying to balance Romulan Cloaking against what's currently there - well, what's currently there...Cryptic's already been looking at addressing that.

So should they address that first - then balance against that...
...or should they not address that, try to balance against that, then maybe/maybe not ever get around to addressing it and then having to readdress the Romulan stealth?

Fun stuff...fun stuff...if you like hitting your thumb with the hammer instead of the nail.
Personally, I think I would rather hit my thumb with the nail than the hammer... see what I did there? lol.

What exactly has cryptic been looking at addressing and in what ways? What do they think is out of balance/needs fixing? And have they given any indication as to how they plan on fixing these issues?
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:03 PM.