Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,889
# 871
05-08-2013, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i posted that before i had a chance to see those 2 sections being released as different ships, thought those were mirror versions for some of the other ships. THANKFULLY these ships are perfect for mirror counterparts, so im glad i simply over reacted.

the mirror hapax, thats got to be a typo, 4 sci consoles and 2 eng, with 3 tac. with the station change being a sci ens vs a tac ens.. must be 4 eng, 3 sci and 2 tac.

the escort section, the station setup is the same, and its got 10 consoles. it should have a ENS eng, and a 3rd sci console with 2 eng consoles. thats just a typo mess

they got the sci ship right, with the ENS eng vs ENS tac, with the 3 eng consoles vs 2 tac ENS

so if this threads being looked at still, give the descriptions a pass !
Yeah, after I got on Tribble and saw the 3 normal versions, it all started to make sense. Was also somewhat confused about where the mirror ships actually come from.

Now it's pretty much 3 warbirds with typical eng/tac/sci boff and console layouts. And their mirror versions should just inverse the order of the secondary and teriary focus, like FED mirror ships (AKA moving the ensign slot and one console slot).
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We're discussing making the Fleet Ha'apax a 3 Tac, 5 Eng, 2 Sci ship if we alter the D'deridex and the Fleet D'deridex.
Go for it. Then you got a really solid three-some of eng/tac/sci ships each with a fleet version. The more they all resemble each other the more intuitive it will be.

And the D'Deridex deserves better than it has now.


EDIT: While the Ens tac slots can be very annoying I am for keeping them on the T'Varo and Dhelan. I see it as a potential price to pay for EBC (T'Varo) and 5 tac slots with BC (on the Fleet Dhelan).
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!

Last edited by toiva; 05-08-2013 at 02:00 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 580
# 872
05-08-2013, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
those are supposed to be pretty tactical ships, having less tac then they do now would proboly not be a good thing
I'm in adamant disagreement of that.

Just how useful is an ensign tactical power to you? How useful is it when you've got two of them? How useful is it when you have to run three of them and try to manage to make all three feel useful?

That's the problem the Defiant and Armitage have to deal with. They need to get 3 ensign tactical powers running somehow without any of them feeling useless. Some people manage to get to tactical team to run one after the other, but it still leaves the third power in a "I'm probably not going to click on it" limbo.

Transferring the T'varo's tactical ensign station to science has several benefits:
  • Firstly, more science gives warbirds that appealing sciency feel they ought to have anyways.
  • Secondly, science ensign powers stack much better so if you use your LtC universal for science your Lt and Ens science stations mesh in pretty well.
  • Third, you always keep a Lt sci and Ens Sci even if you use the LtC universal for tactical or engineering use. This allows you to run a relatively comfortable suite of science abilities which is something that's actually prized on a ship with enhanced battle cloak (i.e.: polarize hull, hazard beam, transfer shield strength/science team if you're defensively minded against Borg, Breen or Tholians - the latter which are presently a direct threat to the Republic)
  • Fourth, you stave off the three ensign tactical power syndrome if you do choose to go with turning the LtC universal station to tactical. The Cmd Tac the T'varo has by default is okay enough, but if you choose to supplement it with the universal station it won't end up going overboard.
  • Fifth, it does end up still being a fairly original Boff layout.

Toiva says they are annoying, but is willing to bear with them because he thinks it's a 'deserved' handicap in compensation of the Enhanced Battle Cloak. Whereas I think any notion of handicap is garbage when what we're talking about is swapping something that doesn't create a significant power creep so much as better preserve thematic synergy and ease of use.

Mind, I also think this applies to the Dhelan as well, but the T'varo makes a better case of this due to its Enhanced Battle Cloak and how it permits science powers to be used through it.

Last edited by umaeko; 05-08-2013 at 02:19 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 147
# 873
05-08-2013, 02:46 PM
Since dropping the number of tactical consoles on the T'varo from 5 to 4, I would agree that 3 ensign tactical stations are not necessary.

I see the reason why the Fleet Defiant/MVAE/Armitage received the hampering 3rd ensign tactical was because you get amuch sought after 5th tac console or hanger in return. Without this hampering, these would be THE default go-to ships.
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 24
# 874
05-08-2013, 03:09 PM
Fleet T'varo Retrofit:

Now you have the stealth bomber with science abilities while keeping the possibilty of a very nasty alpha striker.

Gone is the non cloaking dog fighter and for this ship that is something it should never have been able to do in the first place.

The only change I could suggest would be to make the consoles; 4 Tac, 2 Eng, 4 Sci, to give the possibilty of super shield heals from cloak or more Particle Generator mayhem from sci consoles.

It is a bit odd that the ship least likely to use singularity powers would be the one that has the console on its refit that affects them more than any.


Fleet Dhelan Retrofit:

If this is to be the main escort for the Romulans then a more tactical layout may be in order.

Comm Tac
Lt. Comm Tac
Lt. Eng
Lt. Sci
Ens. Uni

This unfortunately just makes it into a Fleet Patrol Escort clone with a 5th Tac slot.

The Dhelan Refit and Retrofit consoles really sound like engineering marvels so a more engineering boff layout makes sense in a way.

The Mogai layout may not be the best for the Dhelan so here is another one to ponder.

Comm Tac
Lt. Comm Eng
Lt. Sci
Lt. Uni
Ens. Uni

The universal Lt. could go to Tac to boost that beyond what the Dhelan has always been kind of saddled with or could go to engineering for a more robust build or even an aux to batt build.

The ensign universal could go to balance things out in the build depending on where the Lt. uni goes.


Fleet Mogai Retrofit:

The sleek look of this ship as well as the nature of its special consoles suggests a more scientific approach to warfare.

The Fleet Dhelan Retrofit boff layout would be ideal for the Mogai.

Comm Tac
Ens. Tac
Lt. Eng
Lt. Comm Sci
Lt. Uni

However I do think that the previous console layout of 4-2-4 could be made into a 4-3-3 one.

The reason for this is that the Mogai only turns at 14 and may benefit more than a higher turn rate ship from the improved RCS consoles.

I do not know the benefit one might experience from the RCS changes but if significant enough than it would justify this layout.

If the RCS would not have much of an impact on the turn rate of the Mogai than a 4 Tac, 2 Eng, 4 Sci console layout would be better.


Fleet D'deridex:

Your surprise proposal for the Fleet D'deridex looks amazing.

The inclusion of 2 Lt. Comm boffs I thought could only be achieved if the ship was limited to 4 boff slots which I did propose a while back.

The change to 3 Tac consoles and the boff layout will give many people who were sitting on the fence or disinterested in the D'deridex as it had been presented (me), reason to get a Legacy pack instead of buying just one or two ships.


Fleet Ha'apax:

With the proposed changes to the D'deridex, the 5 Eng cruiser role needs to be filled.

Lt. Tac
Comm Eng
Lt. Comm Eng
Lt. Uni
Ens. Uni

Consoles; 3 Tac, 5 Eng, 2 Sci

The many cruiser builds out there that benfit from Comm and Lt. Comm Engineering will be served and with 2 universal boffs many builds would be possible.


Fleet Ha'nom:

Having a sci ship that can mount cannons but only have 1 possible cannon skill is kind of a waste.

Lt. Comm Tac
Lt. Eng
Comm Sci
Lt. Sci
Ens. Sci

I went with no universals as I wanted to keep a 7 sci power layout.

The console layout proposed looks good.


Fleet Ha'feh:

This thing looks way too much like the Dhelan in layout and stats and having to wait until a tier 5 shipyard to get a possible Romulan Fleet Patrol Escort is weird.

The Lt. Comm as a sci instead of a Tac makes it look too similar to a Mogai, as an eng it's the Dhelan.

Hmm, what to do with this ship.........

One thing I could come up with is a twist on the Steamrunner.

Comm Tac
Lt. Comm Tac
Lt. Sci
Lt. Sci
Ens. Eng

Or maybe taking an idea from the D'deridex proposal;

Comm Tac
Lt. Tac
Lt. Sci
Lt. Sci
Lt. Eng

Consoles: 4 Tac, 3 Eng, 3Sci

Hull: 30,000 regular and 33,000 Fleet

Turn 17

+10 Weapons
+5 Shield

I do hope that the images of the Ha'nom and Ha'feh are only place holders as the layouts and stats for these ships don't really jive with being parts of the Ha'apax.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 795
# 875
05-08-2013, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuxx500 View Post
Fleet D'deridex:

Your surprise proposal for the Fleet D'deridex looks amazing.

The inclusion of 2 Lt. Comm boffs I thought could only be achieved if the ship was limited to 4 boff slots which I did propose a while back.

The change to 3 Tac consoles and the boff layout will give many people who were sitting on the fence or disinterested in the D'deridex as it had been presented (me), reason to get a Legacy pack instead of buying just one or two ships.


What surprise proposal are you talking about, and where was it made?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,166
# 876
05-08-2013, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilbart View Post
Since dropping the number of tactical consoles on the T'varo from 5 to 4, I would agree that 3 ensign tactical stations are not necessary.

I see the reason why the Fleet Defiant/MVAE/Armitage received the hampering 3rd ensign tactical was because you get amuch sought after 5th tac console or hanger in return. Without this hampering, these would be THE default go-to ships.
I don't see a third tac station on the T'varo's new layout. It has a Lt Cmdr Universal which would be pretty dumb to use as tactical unless you are going to use this ship decloaked as a DHC escort, but that is a waste anyway, do that with a Mogai or Dhelan. This ship is a BOP, it should either be using all torps and sci spam while staying cloaked, or briefley decloaking just for a quick beam overload alpha.

If you really must use The T'varo as a DHC escort instead of as a BOP having a 3rd tac boff isn't so bad anymore, it lets you slot a 3rd Romulan tac boff on it for more crit chance/severity. 3 of these boffs are so powerful the only fed escorts I use now are the Fleet Defiant, Kumari, and Fleet Armitage.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing the ensign as universal, but I doubt it would happen as this ship is extremely powerful already as it is now, probably the best all around Romulan ship
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 24
# 877
05-08-2013, 06:02 PM
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,850
# 878
05-08-2013, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by umaeko View Post
I'm in adamant disagreement of that.

Just how useful is an ensign tactical power to you? How useful is it when you've got two of them? How useful is it when you have to run three of them and try to manage to make all three feel useful?

That's the problem the Defiant and Armitage have to deal with. They need to get 3 ensign tactical powers running somehow without any of them feeling useless. Some people manage to get to tactical team to run one after the other, but it still leaves the third power in a "I'm probably not going to click on it" limbo.
sounds like your confusing how bad it is to have 3 eng ENS stations with how it is to have 3 tac ENS.

3 tac ENS is not bad, most ships want at least 2. you only cant use 3 tac ENS if you use a 4 DHC build. 2 ENS tacs can give you 2 TT1, for that distribute at the system cooldown, very handy. if you use torps, HY1 is a great skill, that has the most damage per torp of any HY. it crits super hard. BO1 is ok, especially if you have a higher grade BO as well, so you can use it every 15 seconds.

escorts are always gonna want 2 TTs, 2 CFRs, and 2 HY/BO, with at least 1 APO. 3 tac ens can help you do this, your going to be missing one of these somewhere with out that 3rd ENS. even the defiant is fine, you get 2 APOs, with it no prob, wile getting 2 or everything else

there is nothing about the tvaro getting a COM and ENS tac to complain about.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 580
# 879
05-08-2013, 06:29 PM
Not confusion so much as me having my own opinion and making it known, just as much as you've made your own known about the D'deridex.

Apparently, I am not the only one... though the degree of acceptance differs. If you see nothing wrong with the T'varo's current arrangement, so much the better for you - at the very least I don't perceive that my suggestion to archoncryptic harms your own interests in the least.

Still, I believe replacing the Ensign Tactical to Ensign Science would make the T'varo a better romulan warbird - not stronger, more over-powered and whatnot... just better. I don't care much for it having Enhanced Battle Cloak, but if it's going to be slated to be a fixed addition to the ship my feeling on the matter is that it should be optimized so in order to give the T'varo warbird an identity further different from the other ship with enhanced battle cloak in the game.

All I can ask from the devs perusing this thread is their consideration. I can believe in things strongly without making it a complaint.

Last edited by umaeko; 05-08-2013 at 06:33 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,166
# 880
05-08-2013, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by umaeko View Post
Archon, is anything going to be done with the T'varo and Dhelan's Ens Tac slot?

It really needs to be changed to Ensign Science so we can get a bit more of that sciency warbird flavor without going overboard with the Ensign tactical powers when someone would choose to have the LtC universal station used for tactical.
No I would not like to see this, the new boff layout is fine as it is. The idea behind the new boff and console layout was so we can have a tac focused ship that can lean towards sci just as good as it can go eng. Its as close to a bop as you can get without making everything universal.

The ensign tac is handy when you are using a the uni as sci or eng, and is still useful if you were to use it as tac, another torpedo high yield 1 is always great. Seems like you are basing your opinions off of a setup that uses 4 DHC and no torps, thats not what this ship or enhanced battle cloak is for, do that with another ship like Mogai or Dhelan.
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