Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 181
# 891
05-09-2013, 10:06 AM
I posted this in the other thread, but this being the official ship thread, I thought I'd share it here as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.

This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.

I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
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These really are two different questions. The first is which one, between the Dehlan and MOgai, should be the Sci-heavy ship, and which one should be the Engi heavy. The second question is whether the Sci heavy ship should have the current setup (used by the Dehlan) or the old one (which the Mogai used to have). Let me answer the second one first.

Whatever else you do, do NOT revert to the old seating. Regardless of the which ship ends up being the sci-heavy one, the current seating is much better. Reasoning: With the old Mogai setup, the universal slot was a false choice. Given the rest of the slots, almost everyone, if not everyone, would be forced to seat an engineer in the slot. The current (Dehlan) seating allows for a lot more flexibility. One can seat another tactical, for a tact heavy setup, and make it work similar to the advanced escort. One could seat an engineer and attempt to do aux2bat build (interesting given the amount of sci powers, and their reliance on aux), or go with another sci for a very science-y feel. There's real choice with the current bridge setup, that wasn't present earlier.

That said, which one ends up being the sci-heavy and which one eng-heavy must come down to your own design goals regarding the ships. Most people here are going to defend one or the other mostly based on which seating they prefer, and which ship they find visually pleasing. The only advice I can give, without introducing my own prejudices, would be point you back to what these ships should be in relation to each other, in your own words. From Dev Blog #3 we have these descriptions of the ships. Now, granted, they refer to the original ships (and not the retrofit, or fleet retro per se), but it seems to me that this relationship between the ships should carry, at least grossly, into their updated forms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic Blog
The ship [Dehlan] is larger than the T'liss Light Warbird and much sturdier, as well as carrying a heavier payload of weapons.
.
How would "much sturdier" translate into game mechanics? Other than hull and shield strength, it seems to me to also denote heavier Engineer bias. As well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic Blog
The Mogai has an average turn rate and impulse speed, but carries more weapons than the Dhelan and has significantly increased hull strength.
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Now, we know that this doesn't actually translate into more weapon slots in the t5 version. So what would more firepower actually mean? Perhaps an extra tactical console, and the ability to create mini-blackholes, or shutdown an opponents ships with a viral matrix?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,708
# 892
05-09-2013, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
There are two pairs of forward-facing torpedo launchers on the lower wings, so no need to drop anything. Also it isn't the first time they do that. A lot of the Klingon ships were, for half an eternity, plagued with aft torpedoes that jumped upwards out of the launcher.
The Qins still throw forward curveballs...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 556
# 893
05-09-2013, 10:19 AM
You could base yourself on the consoles the Mogai and the Dhelan get.

The Dhael gets the inversion console, which seems about absorbing incoming abuse into singularity power. The Dhelan retrofit gets the sabotage probe.

[Analog abilities could be Reverse Shield Polarity/Feedback Pulse and Viral Matrix]

The Valdore gets the Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator, which basically vampirizes shield though directed energy weapons. The Mogai retrofit's Ionized Particle Beam which enhances weapon fire a bit and can be used to shut down engines.

[Analog abilities could be Energy Drain/Directed Energy Modulation and Emergency Power to Weapons/Subsystem targeting: Engine]

...

This isn't helping. It's just muddling things. They look like engineering could suit just as much as science for both. x_x

The only thing left I'd have to base my own judgment on is how the Mogai is in-game; not boasting much in the way of science abilities. Whereas the Dhelan is a fairly blank slate. Following that logic, the Mogai could be well suited for the unobstrusive engineering abilities, while the Dhelan could boast science powers and not be contradictory to what came before.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 894
05-09-2013, 11:22 AM
Well considering how tough the Valdore/Norexan/Mogai NPCs are, at least compared to everything else that blows up if you as much as sneeze on it, I think the Engi version makes more sense.
Even if it's thanks to Tac Team + Evasive there, survivability is more of an Engi trait in my eyes.
And like the above post says, it was never shown to have any science like abilities in STO PvE or in Nemesis.

The Valdore in Nemesis had a good damage output, and was able to take some damage until the Scimitar managed to get a shot in during a moment of vulnerability.
Sounds more like Tac Engi hybrid to me.

Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 749
# 895
05-09-2013, 12:36 PM
I havent reached 40 yet, but I LOVE the Hanom Guardian Warbird. Romulan Recon Science Vessel? HECK YES! I loved the RSV before I upgraded to Vesta, and my RSV build was just insane for damage and CC.

I love how youre giving us a nice science vessel for the RR, I had lost hope for romulans after seeing how the Gorn Vranus was a batrayal to the KDF and Gorn Philosophies by using the DSSV BOFF Layout. The Hanom will be just as powerful, if not more then my old RSV due to the trait revamp.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 896
05-09-2013, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerealplayer View Post
Whatever else you do, do NOT revert to the old seating. Regardless of the which ship ends up being the sci-heavy one, the current seating is much better. Reasoning: With the old Mogai setup, the universal slot was a false choice. Given the rest of the slots, almost everyone, if not everyone, would be forced to seat an engineer in the slot.
Not everyone! Before the purge, I went science because I needed more science-y stuff for my build. I was running with EPtS 1 and TSS1 for my shield heals, and a single HE2 for my hull repairs. Ended up having to slot APD to be a little less squishy...which I'm now okay with, I have a lot more appreciation for the skill than I used to.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 897
05-09-2013, 02:18 PM
Should there be a level 40 Ha'apax advanced warbird? There isn't one on tribble at the moment, though the 2 split versions are there.
http://picpost.resolute-guild.com/destyn/12thcrypticsig.png
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 898
05-09-2013, 02:45 PM
After seeing the stats with the new Dev blog, I have to question Cryptic's sanity.

Why aren't these Romulan ships not balanced with the Federation and Klingon C-store ships? The old C-store ships gave a +1 console and device advantage, while these Romulan ships give not only a +1 console and device advantage, but a +1 BOFF slot advantage.

Is anyone on the team even thinking about balancing ships anymore? Or have we truly crossed the line and that joke about P2W is actually now true?
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 429
# 899
05-09-2013, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by umaeko View Post
Not confusion so much as me having my own opinion and making it known, just as much as you've made your own known about the D'deridex. .
It is not a matter of opinion. It's fact that having multiple ensign level tac office slots are more useful then engineering. There is absolutely zero use for more then two ensign level engineering bridge officer slots, none at all, there is no arguing that point. Ensign tac on the other hand adds tactical flexibility to your ship and is only not useful if your running a very basic build. B:FaW1, B:O1, T:S1, T:HY1, and TT1 are all examples of very useful ensign level tactical abilities. Engineering on the other hand has EPtX and that's about it.


U.S.S. Mary Celeste
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,654
# 900
05-09-2013, 04:06 PM
I like the new Mogai.

It means I can get a Tier 5 fleet retrofit with a Valdore skin that looks just as well armoured and tough as the Valdore looks.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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