Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 1 Review/Feedback: Tholian pets
04-04-2013, 07:30 PM
I feel like the Angry Pet Reviewer sometimes. I've tried a lot of different pets, and I have been disappointed with most of them. Advanced Peregrine and To'duj fighter, for example, are actually worse than the basic variants which cost far less. Tholian Widow fighters are one of the things I've bashed in the past, and like a lot of carrier captains I've been rocking Elite Scorpions on my Recluse carrier ever since. But now:

General feeling on Tholian Mesh Weavers is: Acceptable!

Today's patch adds in Mesh Weavers. These are unique frigate-class pets only available to the Recluse carrier. They have the following weaponry and abilities:

2x Dual tetryon beams
Tetryon beam array
Thermionic torpedo launcher
Fire At Will 1
Attack Pattern Beta 1
Evasive Maneuvers (?)

The Advanced version has the same weapons, but upgrades the Fire At Will and Attack Pattern Beta abilities to level 2. The basic Mesh Weaver is free, the Advanced version costs 30,250 dilithium per hangar. The ship has a little more than 30K hull strength. One ship launches at a time and you can have 2 per hangar, like other frigates. The Mesh Weaver has a fast cooldown: With my carrier running maximum aux power the basic cooldown is 19 seconds, and with my two flight deck officers, I can spam weavers as fast as fighters. This makes good use of their tactical abilities.

Thanks to work on pet AI, the mesh weavers spend a lot of their time with their front pointed at the enemy, which is where their torpedo and dual beams are. Their Fire At Will capability means that while their beam weapons are just as weak as other pets, they are potentially hitting a lot of targets. Scattering stacking Attack Pattern Beta all over everything in sight also makes them very nice for helping your team in general. The Thermionic torpedo does more damage than the player's version: its base damage is in the 6K-7K range.

In terms of raw damage output, this is going to vary depending on what you're fighting. If you're in STF missions tearing down structures, Elite Scorpions are going to win on damage output thanks to their devastating waves of torpedoes. Unshielded targets simply evaporate to super-scorps. However, in other types of engagements with more mobile enemies, mesh weavers are solid: their weapons do comparatively less damage but they are multi-hitting, their torpedoes aren't getting shot down, and they're debuffing everything in range. They should be particularly good at clearing up enemy pet spam and mine fields.

Elite Scorpions make better "bombers", Mesh Weavers make better escort-frigates. They also look cool and fit the Tholian theme better, if the roleplay/style aspect matters to you.

Things Cryptic could do to instantly make these pets not worth anything:
1.) Prevent APB from stacking

2.) Increase cooldown time


Criticisms:
1.) Not really a complaint as such, but I question what the purpose of Evasive Maneuvers for these pets is. I haven't seen them using it very intelligently. Typically Evasive is for escaping an overwhelming situation, which they don't do, or for getting around in a big ship that doesn't move well, which the weaver is not. There seem to be no rhyme or reason applied to when they use their Evasive?

2.) The Advanced version is slightly disappointing compared to the basic mesh weaver, since all it does it increase the level of their abilities which isn't going to matter much. Fairly poor return on investment. I would like to see the Advanced weavers gain about a increase to their base energy weapon damage (20%?), or to add a forward quantum torpedo launcher in addition to the thermionic launcher. (I was going to say throw a turret on there, but apparently none of the Tholian ships use cannon type weapons)

====================================


General feeling on Tholian Tetryon Grid is: Worse than useless

This is relevant since the Mesh Weaver has "works with tetryon grid" as a feature. Tetryon Grid was worse than useless when I first got a Recluse, and just to make sure I looked at it again: Still worse than useless.

The amount of damage gained from this console is very, very, small. We're talking the functional equivalent of 1 of my torpedo hits, every 2 minutes. This makes it worse than useless because just using another tactical console would be more productive. Seeing as this is apparently supposed to be a real thing for the Recluse, it needs an overhaul.

What about:

* 1 minute basic cooldown

* 15 second system cooldown on Beam Weapons (FAW, Overload, Subtarget)

* Affects up to 4 Tholian pets within 10km (unless there is some strong rationale for it being 6km)

* Each pet reflects 3 simultaneous tetryon beams at randomly selected targets. Each beam does around 3K damage

* Same target cannot be hit multiple times by the same fighter (no, you can't use this as Super Beam Overload 9001)

* Player weapon power momentarily drained by 25 points after tetryon grid.


This would have an absolutely ideal-circumstances damage output of 36,000 damage per activation, or 600 DPS. However this would be spread across at LEAST 3 targets, possibly more, and be affected by miss chance, range, shield hardness, etc.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 144
# 2
04-05-2013, 02:32 AM
As much as I like these mesh weavers they do have some glaring issues. First off, they miss a good percentage of their shots (although this is true for most hanger pets). I've sent 4 out to attack a probe and all 4 launched their thermionic torpedos and all 4 missed lol.

Fire at will can also be an issue, especially when you need to attack a single target and your mesh weaver run in all Leeroy Jenkins style and pulls everything. They get themselves killed a lot in cure because they keep attacking the cubes and drawing aggro.

Damage is ok, of course like most hanger pets most of the damage seems to come from their torpedo. The thermionic torpedo hits for around 6-11k on a bare hull. Their tetryon damage is a little on the low side and isn't very noticeable (I think they could also be affected by the FaW energy drain bug ATM, so it is possible that their damage could increase once that is fixed).

The best part about these pets is attack pattern beta. Granted, I wish it was attack pattern alpha or omega . attack pattern beta is really nice as you can have all 4 use it on a target (though it's usually just 2 at a time, but they tend to alternate as I summon them in pairs).

Evasive maneuver seems to do more harm than good. I've watched them pilot up to their target time and time again only to hit evasive maneuver only to slingshot past their intended target.

Momaw summed up the tetryon grid pretty nicely, It's useless. At this point I feel like it could be a contender for the worst universal console in the game and from a lock box at that too (at least it doesn't kill you like the suicide console lol). I'm also worried that the mesh weavers might be balanced around tetryon grid being an ability for them (like how the tholian fighters only have 2 weapons plus tetryon grid vs most fighters having 3 weapons). This really shouldn't be the case as one already gives up a console slot to use tetryon grid, Their hanger pets shouldn't also give up an ability to use it. Tetryon grid is also made worse by the fact that you only have 4 of the mesh weavers instead of the full 12 which it was meant for.


For fun I met up with a friend who has the Jem'hadar dreadnought carrier and we decided to match his attack ships vs my mesh weavers. The mesh weavers got smoked. After his attack ships destroyed 2 of the 4 I even summoned an additional 2. They still got smashed. I think the new AI this last patch must have really helped the attack ships because they seemed to be able to keep their forward cannons zeroed on the mesh weavers while the mesh weavers mostly just fired their beam array at them.

One problem I've seen is the pets tend to sometimes just stop mid flight for no reason. This usually happens when they end up slightly out of weapons range from my target, although they will occasionally do it mid fight as well.

All in all I feel like the Mesh Weavers are probably a good C+.
FaW on a hanger pet isn't that great as pets don't have energy management abilities to make use of that skill. Damage is a little on the low side, but having attack pattern beta makes up for that and then some (as it increases not just their damage but everyone's). Having 4 ships with thermionic torpedoes is also a plus especially when one procs. The tool tip says that they can use the tetryon grid, but it doesn't say that you should use tetryon grid .


One last thing, the best part about them is that you do not have to own a 400 million Energy credit ship to purchase them .
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 71
# 3
04-05-2013, 07:39 AM
Initial parse testing for me is the adv mesh weavers dont do as much damage as elite scorps, but they are in the ballpark. If I had a way to know how much their ATB added to my allies damage output, they could very well be on par with the elite scorps. Right now they seem to be a great alternative.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,370
# 4
04-05-2013, 11:18 AM
To make the Tetryon Grid worth something, it is necessary to introduce a set bonus that is granted when the Grid and Web Consoles are on the same ship. Perhaps a slow for the grid and a resistance debuff web.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 5
04-05-2013, 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theuser2021 View Post
As much as I like these mesh weavers they do have some glaring issues. First off, they miss a good percentage of their shots (although this is true for most hanger pets). I've sent 4 out to attack a probe and all 4 launched their thermionic torpedos and all 4 missed lol.

Damage is ok, of course like most hanger pets most of the damage seems to come from their torpedo. The thermionic torpedo hits for around 6-11k on a bare hull. Their tetryon damage is a little on the low side and isn't very noticeable (I think they could also be affected by the FaW energy drain bug ATM, so it is possible that their damage could increase once that is fixed).
Gonna have to disagree with you on both of these points.

Here's a screen grab from combatlogparser.

As you can see, their hit ratios are very good, and their most powerful weapon system is their dual beams.

(Also: lol tetryon grid)
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 71
# 6
04-05-2013, 01:08 PM
A couple of Purple Hangar cooldown Flight Deck officers can get you to have their APB2 uptime more constant on targets. I might try 1 Adv Weaver Hangar and 1 Elite Scorp and see what happens.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 144
# 7
04-05-2013, 01:30 PM
I have to admit my evidence is anecdotal. A parse is worth 1000 words lol. I'm just hoping that once the FaW bug is fixed they'll be king .
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 8
04-07-2013, 12:38 PM
I wonder if these can't be improved even more in the AI department.

Perhaps make them fly past targets to a distance of 7km at 100% throttle, then turn around, set throttle to 50%, and use both FAW and APB. If hull falls below half, use evasive maneuvers and keep throttle to 100%.

Slightly more computationally expensive:
If multiple targets are within range check to see if any are within 90 degrees of the ship's position and the player's target; if they are, set course between the targets to ensure FAW is multi-hitting with best guns.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 9
04-07-2013, 02:08 PM
These pets aren't acceptable, they are clearly awesome/completely OP.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 10
04-07-2013, 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
These pets aren't acceptable, they are clearly awesome/completely OP.
Have you used them? What is your experience? Why are they overpowered?

I feel compelled to defend these things because they're actually a viable alternative to elite scorpion spam, and I want to see more viable alternatives in this game instead of nerfed uselessness.
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