Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 203
# 101
04-24-2013, 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by megacharge07 View Post
Bad example, Spock died in prime universe, and was then quickly brought back to life in the next prime universe film.

As I said, Brent Spiner has retired from Trek movies, when they killed off Data in Nemesis, they really killed him off. He isn't coming back in prime universe Trek, he will now only exist in alternate universes, like STO, JJ Abrams Trek, and Trek Books. We will never see prime universe Data, again..
No one really "retire" unless he/she retire totally from films altogether (even then they have come backs)

Granted that there probably WON'T be any new PRIME universe movies/shows but you never know

It could be 30 years and make a new movie like the other movies "That-Shall-Not-Be-Mention"
***
Growing old is inevitable. Growing up is optional.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 316
# 102
04-24-2013, 12:10 PM
You know Spiner may be saying at this point now that he's done with Trek due to age. But I watched an interview with Spiner years back shortly after Nemesis and he even said that the ending left it open for a sequal, even Sir Patrick Stewart said the exact same thing on the bonus dvd for Nemesis.

We can all go back and forth about this all day long, is Data alive, is he dead. Ok, maybe technically he died and has been reincarnated in B4 according to the books and STO. Nobody is wrong or right, some people will follow the books / STO if that future appeals to them more. But you cannot deny that B4 was showing signs of gaining Data's memories at the end of the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S02T1j9qzwg

Each to their own I guess, but what a great way to end a movie and you can tell that even Picard realises there is hope based on his reaction to B4 singing IMO.


"We're doing it wrong, but it's working...."
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 255
# 103
04-24-2013, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierion View Post
You know Spiner may be saying at this point now that he's done with Trek due to age. But I watched an interview with Spiner years back shortly after Nemesis and he even said that the ending left it open for a sequal, even Sir Patrick Stewart said the exact same thing on the bonus dvd for Nemesis.

We can all go back and forth about this all day long, is Data alive, is he dead. Ok, maybe technically he died and has been reincarnated in B4 according to the books and STO. Nobody is wrong or right, some people will follow the books / STO if that future appeals to them more. But you cannot deny that B4 was showing signs of gaining Data's memories at the end of the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S02T1j9qzwg

Each to their own I guess, but what a great way to end a movie and you can tell that even Picard realises there is hope based on his reaction to B4 singing IMO.
Whistling/humming/mouthing a tune is one thing. Displaying the whole intellect is another. But I will agree with what you say about some choosing to stick to prime universe, and some choosing to stick to books/alternate universes. People can believe whatever they wan't, my only problem with it is when people try to claim alternate realities as prime universe when they are not.

Data is dead in prime universe, he is very much alive in alternate universes.

IMO Picard's reaction to B4 is mixed, on one hand, it's a pleasant reminder to him of Data, and on the other it's a sad reminder that he lost someone he cared deeply about, and will never get back. Stewart does a good job of portraying this mixed emotion.

Last edited by megacharge07; 04-24-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 316
# 104
04-24-2013, 12:36 PM
Well, then its down to what you consider prime universe. I agree Data died, at the same time I feel that Data lived on through B4 as some kind of reincarnation which was heavily suggested after the events of B4. He may not be the same Data, but he has his memories, kind of similar to what Dax goes through in DS9, having all the memories of previous hosts. At least that is the way I look at it.

I agree with you on Patrick Stewart though. He does have a way with portraying emotions and bringing his characters to life. I sometimes wish the alternate ending was used, but I did like the original one with B4.


"We're doing it wrong, but it's working...."
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 105
04-24-2013, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Sentience is a product of life, you can be alive but not sentient, but you HAVE to BE Alive to also be Sentient.
incorrect
Sentience does not require life (thats why the term artifical intelligence exists)

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We ourselves have a"prime directive"

And you think that gives us the right to Usurp another being's free will for our own purposes? Sorry but I can't justify that, the fact that you can also disturbs me.

Those capable of fighting have a duty to do so
Free will does not come into it in time of war



Quote:
Dead Wrong, the borg assimilation process is constantly working to keep the individual plugged into the hive mind and part of the collective, Any drone separated from the collective for even a short time, their individuality will return and their life process start to reject the borg implants.
you mean the corpse starts to decay

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The members of the collective are alive but are having their life processes hi jacked and maintained by the borg technology.
if you rip out someones heart and half their brain they are dead



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not a life form of any kind
a machine is NOT alive
it can be a sentient but it can not be alive

Again this depends the definition of Life, a definition that in the star trek world has been expanded time and time again to INCLUDE inorganic forms of life. Inorganic btw meaning lifeforms who are not carbon based. A Silicon based lifeform is by definition an Inorganic lifeform, supposedly the Roswell Greys are Silicon based.
interesting fact carbon based life is the least probable form chemically (we are a freak of nature)


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Sentience is a criteria for life, you cannot BE sentient and not be alive, the criteria for sentience is Intelligence, Self-Awareness and Consciousness, so by that definition ALONE that means Data is alive.

if you can't Grow . breed , and DIE you aren't alive


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Ah see now your splitting hairs, because those subjects of your example are Inorganic life forms.
crystals are organic

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And your qualifer for why the gas creatures and microbrains are alive also applies to data, because data does breathe and has reproduced. So why are you applying the rules but excluding data even though he has performed the exact same actions.

Data does not breathe and can not reproduce He replicated lal

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actually even starfleet does not say data is alive

because of politics, even in the 24th century you still can't escape that.
Because of biology (which he does not have)
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Starfleet does not regard androids as alive (they issue them as hardware for example)

Where did you read that Starfleet issues Androids?
veteran benefits ??

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because of the Android Boff? No sir, these androids are those in similar situations as Data, they are full fledged Bridge Crew not equipment.
Kryton
they clean the toilets and mop the floors


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Tolerance??
each serves as best he can
and something that can't be assimilated and can't be killed is a perfect weapon against the borg

Then advocate the development of the Infinity Modulator technology
I advocate Weaponised nanites , ebola , Cannibal tribble torpedoes and solid state collision warheads if it will de-assimilate the borg

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MACO's

you think they are slaves ??

MACOs CHOOSE to be Macos, your talking about programming a race of Datas into Combat troops with no regard to their opinion on the matter.
macos are holograms in many cases
and the ones who aren't got Drafted
no one would Choose to be an armoured Grunt


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but a machine feels no pain can not die and can be mass produced
so which is it better to send into battle 40 billion machines or 40 billion actual people
remembering that the borg CAN'T assimilate data

That has never been established, it's true that Data is highly resistant to assimilation but it's never been proven that he can't be assimilated.
no organic components and capable of self destruct
he can't be assimilated (same as tholians )


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Again, it is impossible to be sentient and not be alive

the enterprise computer is sentient
its not alive

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Trek is all about "being human" well data isn't and never will be
he is superior in some respects and definately sentient
but he comes with built in directives and protocols
he is a machine

Trek is about exploring the possibilities that exist that could exist.
Not according to gene its not

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our current state is "human"

That response doesn't even have anything to do with the statement that your quoting from. By our state, I'm talking about our standpoint in relation to our knowledge and our very being's evolutionary path, because we don't know how far there is left to go, we can't define are position on an over stand point of progress.
humans are not evolving (we never have and never will we devolved from something a bit better a few times but we are not evolving)


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the borg kill and enslave trillions of life forms
I talk about making a better soldier one that they can't assimilate and you side with them

weird

Actually no I'm not, I am against ANYONE Usurping a race for their own purposes. The Borg Usurp those they assimilate entire races to do their bidding. If we followed you suggestion, that would make us no better THEN The Borg.
Androids are not a race (or does your hand phaser get to speak at staff meetings)



Quote:
Actually I do know the definition of Life and of Sentience, and One is conditional on the other. While Life can exist and not be sentient, Sentience cannot exist without life, because sentience requires consciousness, and consciousness is a quality of life.

actually the reverse is almost true
99.999999% of life is not sentient (earth has at most 20 sentient species half of them live in the sea)
almost everything alive is non sentient

and many non living things may be sentient computers are heading there
And life "as we know it " is hihly improbable even on earth
(Crystaline life is actually more likely than we are for example )
-AE
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 203
# 106
04-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I don't think Q can "breed" or "grow" (physically) but they CAN grow mentally. Does that mean the Q continuum is not alive?
***
Growing old is inevitable. Growing up is optional.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 107
04-24-2013, 12:55 PM
Q has been shown to breed
therefore he may be alive

however he is a seriously different form of life
and I would need to disect him to know for sure
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,121
# 108
04-24-2013, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasheria View Post
I don't think Q can "breed" or "grow" (physically) but they CAN grow mentally. Does that mean the Q continuum is not alive?
Q's son is in Voyager - and it's the Q that is used in STO.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,246
# 109
04-24-2013, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by megacharge07 View Post
No, it was part of the plan. I don't ever remember hearing Nimoy retiring from Trek, then changing his mind. Whereas, Spiner said he was done. So they killed Data off, without the possibility of return. If Spiner wasn't serious I'm sure they wouldn't have had such dialogue, and we would have seen another prime universe Trek movie since Nemesis, which we have not. It's been quite a few years since Nemesis, and Data is still dead, and Spiner is still retired from Trek.

Interesting to note, I saw Spiner at ComicCon in Montreal last year, and I specifically asked him if he was going to do another Trek movie, and the answer was an adamant no. He said he wanted to focus more on Television, and was done with Trek movies for good.
The only reason Nimoy returned to Trek after 'The Motion Picture' at all was because he was promised that Spock would be killed off; he had steadfastly refused to get involved in any further Trek projects up until that point.

A quote a recollection from the man himself:

''Since I really feel tortured each time I get a call about this thing, maybe Spock's dying is a good idea. If this Star Trek movie is really what I think it is, a low-budget attempt to wring out every last drop of blood, maybe the thing to do is die with some glory and say good-bye. Then they can't possibly call me again.' It looked to me like a graceful exit. That's what got me involved.' (Leonard Nimoy, 'Star Trek Movie Memories', 1995, by William Shatner with Chris Kreski, p.138).

He wanted out. He only got involved in 'Wrath of Khan' at all because the director offered to kill off his character if he agreed.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters

Last edited by capnmanx; 04-24-2013 at 01:05 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 255
# 110
04-24-2013, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
A quote a recollection from the man himself:

''Since I really feel tortured each time I get a call about this thing, maybe Spock's dying is a good idea. If this Star Trek movie is really what I think it is, a low-budget attempt to wring out every last drop of blood, maybe the thing to do is die with some glory and say good-bye. Then they can't possibly call me again.' It looked to me like a graceful exit. That's what got me involved.' (Leonard Nimoy, 'Star Trek Movie Memories', 1995, by William Shatner with Chris Kreski, p.138).

He wanted out. He only got involved in 'Wrath of Khan' at all because the director offered to kill off his character if he agreed.
And he was back shortly thereafter and in all the following movies, and even in the JJ Abrams alternate universe film.

There has not been a prime universe movie since Nemesis, and if there is, Data will not be in it. Spiner has retired from Trek films because he does not want to do them anymore. Which is a far different reason than thinking that someone's ruining your show by making a movie of it to wring out cash.

The guy flat out does not want to do it anymore, and it's not happening. Spiner wanted Data dead, the directors wrote him out, and he is gone, and will not be returning to the prime universe or in any way portrayed by Brent Spiner.

Data now only exists in alternate universe books and games.
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