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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 21
04-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsurutafan01 View Post
To be honest I'd still rather take a look at cannons draining more power, and beams draining less, and see what can be done with that. I don't particularly have a problem with cruisers turning slowly, although guys like dontdrunkimshoot make good points about turn rate's power in PvP settings.
drunk isn't wrong on turn rate power overall in PvP, but I'm quite sure he will tell you that the situation changes the more organized the teams, and the more powerful their cross-healing becomes.

As cross healing becomes more powerful, and teams move into SNB + APA kill cycles, things like 'speed' tanking and the need to constantly move out of fire arcs as a slower ship become much diminished.



Regardless, we have good news. Archon has now tweaked the Starship Impulse Thrusters skill as well, so there is even more turn rate to be had for Cruisers coming.

Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,696
# 22
04-24-2013, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We definitely talked about this, but it would have ended up as either a) a nerf for ships that already have a super fast turn rate or b) an extremely high number if we based it on the maximum possible for a super fast ship right now.

While we're always looking at options on this stuff, for the time being we've decided a general boost that benefits everyone (though some proportionately more than others) was a more reasonable approach.

As an added note, I've made a change that will also increase the benefit of Starship Impulse Thrusters skill (in the same way as the RCS consoles were changed). This should be getting to Tribble soon(tm).
all the normal escorts with a 16 turn wouldn't lose much if it was changed to a flat +3.5 instead of a +35%. 15 turn ships would break even i think. only the bug would noticeably lose out, and frankly escorts can turn far better then they should, fireing arcs were balanced based on much lower turn rates in the past, fireing arc is no disadvantage on any escorts anymore. given the buff to EPtE on tribble too, thats a HUGE buff for escort movement. its completely appropriate in light of that that the very best turning escorts get brought back to about 50 turn, instead of 60. thats hardly unreasonable.

its appropriate to nerf escorts twice for every cruiser nerf you guys are introducing. cruisers wont even be viable anymore if the LOR EPt change goes through
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 04-24-2013 at 11:16 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,410
# 23
04-24-2013, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We definitely talked about this, but it would have ended up as either a) a nerf for ships that already have a super fast turn rate
This is a good thing.


Check out www.startrekattackwingwiki.com for information on Star Trek Attack Wing.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 24
04-24-2013, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
At the same time, the Devs should not cater to the "we hate escorts no matter the change or ramifications" crowd either.

Because as much as I am 100% completely in favor of Cruisers getting a bigger benefit out of RCS consoles then they have had in the past, this is primarily a quality of life issue and not a performance issue.

In PvP, where this game's combat mechanics come to life (seriously, this game has at it's core some exceptionally fun space PvP combat), Escorts live and die by their firing arcs (and their healer support ), where as its mostly a quality of life issue for Cruisers.
how is a kdf cruiser's turn rate a "quality of life issue"???

If turn is a decisive factor for escorts, it is for cruisers even more so.

Higher inertia means more trouble getting one shield facing away from an attack. escorts get out of range much easier and faster then cruisers, hence turn is all cruisers got to mitigate damage through actual piloting.

Even broadsiding cruisers and sci ships, that want to use frontal arc powers, need turn to be able to land them in a timely fashion.

Or how do your mid-to-high level pvp'eeps land SNBs?...oh right frontal arc powers do matter in pvp afterall.

Having the best turn in game no matter what, now getting a further buff, because welll because .... that is a quallity of live issue.

but yeah systems has given up, and so have I.
Joined 06.10
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Last edited by havam; 04-24-2013 at 11:22 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 25
04-24-2013, 11:20 AM
The RCS consoles right now are as much absurd as if cruisers got suddenly 3x more bonus from dmg boosting tac consoles, compared to other ships.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 839
# 26
04-24-2013, 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
We definitely talked about this, but it would have ended up as either a) a nerf for ships that already have a super fast turn rate or b) an extremely high number if we based it on the maximum possible for a super fast ship right now.

While we're always looking at options on this stuff, for the time being we've decided a general boost that benefits everyone (though some proportionately more than others) was a more reasonable approach.

As an added note, I've made a change that will also increase the benefit of Starship Impulse Thrusters skill (in the same way as the RCS consoles were changed). This should be getting to Tribble soon(tm).
Well, i honestly disagree, the way it is implemented now on tribble, only shifts the cap in turn rate up on the scale a little, but it does not equalizes the turn rare differences, it enforces them, just with a higher neutral point. The escort will still outturn a cruiser, even more so. And together with the etpe change, do escorts really need a turnrate over 100 to be fun to play? Definitely not for PvE and for PvP neither since it further invalidates the other ship classes. Be honest, for all PvE content all you need is a escort speced into dps and you are golden. NO mission needs anything else. Even the fabled hive onslaught is way easier and faster done with all escorts then with cruisers or mixed teams.

the problem is that escort get all the benefits all the time, most damage, most movement, most avoidance, enough tanking to survive everything in PvE.

So, back to the begin, escorts shoudl benefit less from RCS consoles then they do now. A flat turn rate benefit would be better. Pick a neutral point, something between 10 and 15, then set the RCS consoles to use that bonus and use it as flat bonus for all ships. And you have created a much more fairer and balances RCS console. Crusers get a large bonus, sci ships get a medium bonus, escorts get a smaller bonus. It would also follow the need curve for more turn rate. Cruisers need it the most, escort the least.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 27
04-24-2013, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
how is a kdf cruiser's turn rate a "quality of life issue"???
I have a Tac/Fleet Vorcha, and a Tac/Dkora (which is basically a KDF style battle cruiser), and I'm happy about these changes.

I recognize that those ships, with their overall better mitigation than my escorts, lose a little something in the trade off.


And they do, in fact, have better mitigation. Regardless of all the endless crying we hear to the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
On the other hand engineering consoles should be valuable for engineering ships (cruisers) most, not escorts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
The RCS consoles right now are as much absurd as if cruisers got suddenly 3x more bonus from dmg boosting tac consoles, compared to other ships.

Conversely speaking perhaps Tac consoles should then be better for "Tac" ships like Escorts/Raptors/Raiders compared to "Cruisers" and "Battle Cruisers".

Just because its an "Eng" or "Tac" or "Sci" console, doesn't necessarily mean it should significantly boost that specific ship class above all others imo.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 28
04-24-2013, 12:03 PM
I understand "one escort to rule them all" players like yourself, would love that

But nice that you skiped the point of the absurdity in my example. That consoles should be roughly valuable for all ships, not 2x - 3x difference for certain types. After all, console slots are crucial part of ship budgets.

Why not change the +beam tac consoles to give 3x great buff to cruisers ? Why not give shield hps consoles 3x the value for science ships ? Why not remove the diminished returns and let cruisers have 3x the resistance from consoles ?

Balance my engine exhaust port...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 29
04-24-2013, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I understand "one escort to rule them all" players like yourself, would love that
And here I thought I've been flying a Tac/D'Kora for the past month, killing people with the Single Cannons that everyone tells me are awful and DBBs with a Base turn rate of 8. Less than any KDF battlecruiser.





Let me know if you want to put together a 5v5 match. We won't bring any escorts.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 30
04-24-2013, 12:23 PM
Nice that you AGAIN, skipped the point about console values

A ship with 5 engineering console slots that puts 5 engineering RCS consoles there, gets LESS bonus than a tactical ship with two engineering RCS consoles.

Does it feel right ? Are really engineering slots equally valuable ?

P.S. And btw. you sound like Jorf now few years back who whenever he needed to backup his claim, challenged you to a duel in his eng/bop .... to prove his point

Last edited by dalnar83; 04-24-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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