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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 253
# 71
04-24-2013, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I don't see why cruisers should get a massive benefit from RCS and escorts and other fast turning ships get less.
Because on the face of it, it makes sense. You can monkey about with the suspension and handling of a $300k sports car, and you might get some moderate improvement. But do you think you'll ever get the same magnitude of improvement for the effort that you would putting that same amount of work into the front end of a pickup truck? Likely not. Nor should that amount of effort ever make the pickup truck handle like the sports car. One is already heavily tuned for handling and performance, the other less so, and indeed, less capable of it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 368
# 72
04-24-2013, 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
I don't see why cruisers should get a massive benefit from RCS and escorts and other fast turning ships get less.
Resists are subject to diminishing returns. Cruisers are packed with Engineering Consoles that are mainly used for that, since the only other useful stuff to slot there are universal dump consoles, or RCS consoles which offer a percent bonus that is pretty much a joke on a Cruiser's base turn rate. They also are loaded with Engineering BOff Slots, where one of the main uses are adding resists.

So... of the two useful consoles that are actually Engineering Consoles one runs into the diminishing returns wall, and the other is a joke to slot because it's a percent bonus and works better in smaller numbers on any other non-Engineering ship.

Tactical console damage bonuses don't see diminishing returns, and Escorts are loaded with those. And those same Escorts get maximized use of RCS consoles as well. Why do Escorts get the best of everything, including Engineering stuff despite being a Tactical Vessel? Does that seem entirely right to you?
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Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 759
# 73
04-24-2013, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattimeo97 View Post
Because on the face of it, it makes sense. You can monkey about with the suspension and handling of a $300k sports car, and you might get some moderate improvement. But do you think you'll ever get the same magnitude of improvement for the effort that you would putting that same amount of work into the front end of a pickup truck? Likely not. Nor should that amount of effort ever make the pickup truck handle like the sports car. One is already heavily tuned for handling and performance, the other less so, and indeed, less capable of it.
Cruisers are far more massive than other vessels, a more appropriate analogy would be a sports car and a bus. And nothing short of chopping that bus apart and making it a less massive and cumbersome vehicle will improve that turn rate. What makes more sense is that rcs accelerators are a fixed unit, and when that unit is slapped onto a small vessel like an escort, it can easily move it, when you slap it on a large vessel, it has far more mass to move and thus you get less out of it.

The other way to look at it is that rcs are a proportional unit, the larger the ship, the larger the rcs that can be accommodated. In this instance one could expect that a small rcs pushing a small escort results in +5 turn and a large rcs on a large cruiser will result in +5 turn rate. But in no universe should we be expecting that putting an rcs on an escort does less for that ship than putting it on a large ship. So equal gains for both ships, or better gains for smaller ships is what makes sense.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 759
# 74
04-24-2013, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyhappyj0yj0y View Post
Resists are subject to diminishing returns. Cruisers are packed with Engineering Consoles that are mainly used for that, since the only other useful stuff to slot there are universal dump consoles, or RCS consoles which offer a percent bonus that is pretty much a joke on a Cruiser's base turn rate. They also are loaded with Engineering BOff Slots, where one of the main uses are adding resists.

So... of the two useful consoles that are actually Engineering Consoles one runs into the diminishing returns wall, and the other is a joke to slot because it's a percent bonus and works better in smaller numbers on any other non-Engineering ship.

Tactical console damage bonuses don't see diminishing returns, and Escorts are loaded with those. And those same Escorts get maximized use of RCS consoles as well. Why do Escorts get the best of everything, including Engineering stuff despite being a Tactical Vessel? Does that seem entirely right to you?
Absolutely not. A real quick way to remedy that situation would be to introduce tactical consoles to the wonderful world of diminishing returns. Sure an escort with 5 tactical console slots can load up on all +antiproton damage, for example, but if they got less of a reward for each additional console, suddenly they would have the "slight bonus" for their profession that every other ship gets instead of the overwhelming blast through anything bonus they currently have. Additionally, they would be faced with the same dilema the other ships are, which is. Do I stack 4-5 energy damage consoles for absolute maximum cannon output, or do I slot a few other things? Escorts could then choose to have a couple energy consoles and a couple torpedo consoles, or they could introduce some accuracy and other such consoles to round out their ranks.... or... *gasp* they might actually slot a universal console in a tactical slot! ZOMG! It's the end of the world!

Granted, damage always has to be better than healing/resists in this game, otherwise nothing will ever die, but yeah, that's the quick and dirty way to level the playing field.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 759
# 75
04-24-2013, 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
You basically just described how lower speed improves a ship's ability to turn... not the turn rate, no - but the ability to turn. If the complaint is about turning, then one has to consider everything involved with turning - which goes beyond just the turn rate.
Actually, you don't actually turn any faster, you just cover less ground which makes you "feel" like you turned faster. Let's say a ship turns at 10 degrees per second. Since the throttle does not change the turn rate except when the ship is at a complete stop, or in reverse where power drain will lower engine power and thus turn rate, the ship turns at 10 degrees per second regardless of if it is traveling at impulse 5 or impulse 25. As such, if you turn at 10 degrees per second and a speed of 5km per second, you will cover 90km to come about 180 degrees. If you are flying at 25km per second, you will cover 450 km to come about 180 degrees. However, you still turned at 10 degrees per second. Meaning it will take you 18 seconds to turn your ship 180 degrees regardless of speed.

You turn at the same rate either way, just lower throttle creates less movement on the map during the turning process... which lower throttle creates less movement on the map during any process so... yeah.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 253
# 76
04-24-2013, 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofsemantics View Post
Actually, you just end up with your nose pointed where you wanted it to be, which accomplishes the same goal, regardless.
FIFY.

/10char
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,052
# 77
04-24-2013, 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
A real quick way to remedy that situation would be to introduce tactical consoles to the wonderful world of diminishing returns.
I'm only two hours into the latest UGC, and I'm interested to see where it goes.

Geko's said they can't nerf anything, because of the uproar that creates. So you've got to buff things instead. Later though, he says you can't buff things because that leads to an arms race of mudflation. Course, before either of those he said something he values highly is consistency. Yes, I lol'd...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 759
# 78
04-24-2013, 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattimeo97 View Post
FIFY.

/10char
Yes, I am aware that I have a tendency to be "long fingered" (the typing equivalent of long winded) or long e-winded or an accidental novelist... whichever you prefer to call it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,052
# 79
04-24-2013, 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Actually, you don't actually turn any faster, you just cover less ground which makes you "feel" like you turned faster. Let's say a ship turns at 10 degrees per second. Since the throttle does not change the turn rate except when the ship is at a complete stop, or in reverse where power drain will lower engine power and thus turn rate, the ship turns at 10 degrees per second regardless of if it is traveling at impulse 5 or impulse 25. As such, if you turn at 10 degrees per second and a speed of 5km per second, you will cover 90km to come about 180 degrees. If you are flying at 25km per second, you will cover 450 km to come about 180 degrees. However, you still turned at 10 degrees per second. Meaning it will take you 18 seconds to turn your ship 180 degrees regardless of speed.

You turn at the same rate either way, just lower throttle creates less movement on the map during the turning process... which lower throttle creates less movement on the map during any process so... yeah.
If one does not care about where they are on the map while making the turn, then obviously the time to make that turn will be constant. However, since most people are actually trying to make the turn in regard to other objects on the map - the turn radius becomes important.

Step outside your front door. Turn 1 degree every minute. Three hours later, you'll be facing your door.

Step outside your front door. Turn 1 degree every minute while stepping forward a foot. Three hours later, yeah...that's not your front door.

The target is to my left. I want to face the target. Do I adjust my throttle, use various abilities...or do I just full throttle and figure I'll get there eventually?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 759
# 80
04-24-2013, 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I'm only two hours into the latest UGC, and I'm interested to see where it goes.

Geko's said they can't nerf anything, because of the uproar that creates. So you've got to buff things instead. Later though, he says you can't buff things because that leads to an arms race of mudflation. Course, before either of those he said something he values highly is consistency. Yes, I lol'd...
What is this "UGC" you speak of?

And he is right, no one likes a nerf, but the only people that seem to have benefited from this nerfing embargo are the tacs/escorts. So I guess now nerfing is illegal, but they're going to grandfather in the nerfing of cruisers/eng skills and sci ships/skills. Goodie. -.-

But the "nobody likes a nerf" is why I suggested in the romulan ship/powers thread that instead of giving romulans lower power levels in exchange for their gimicks, give warp core ships +5 power across the board. But if they doing want the "mudflation" effect, they could simply remove the power drain mechanic on weapons, which I think is the bigger issue to most people.

I think most feel that you have to set weapons to absolute maximum with a surplus above 125 if you want your weapons to fire at about 100 by the time power drain has its way with you. So -40 power across the board is a biiiig fat nerf in that regard. But if you could set your weapons to 90 and get what the tooltip says you will get at 90 weapon power, I think people would be fine with it, but since you set your weapons to 90 and get 70 from drain mechanic, everyone's like "F*** no! Scrap this whole singularity mechanic and just give us a new skin and battle cloak."
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