Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,432
# 121
07-17-2013, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
Hawk, I could kiss you for that. That quote deserves to be framed and shown to all the people on the forum every time something like this pops up, no matter what it is. That just earned you some MAJOR brownie points in my book.

Question: Was this same issue happening on ground Disruptor weapons as well? If yes, is that also getting fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Well I wonder what will be hit next ... Phaser and Plasma were hit (and Antiproton long ago), now Disruptor ... I guess that leaves Polaron to be the one taking a hit next.
Actually, Polaron was changed quite awhile back as well. Not just with Power Insulators protecting against them, but also in the mechanics was changed with them.

Tetryon was indirectly hit with the PI resist as well back when the skill tree change went through.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,458
# 122
07-17-2013, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
APD wouldn't apply -47.1 to all targets. It would apply that to the 0 resistance target, but the other two targets would resist a % of that debuff equal to their % DR at the time the debuff was applied.
So the 0 resistance guy would remain the same...
...but the following two would go from SandyBrown to YellowGreen then?

37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 34.4 (47.1 * 0.63) = 3%, meaning 97% damage is taken.

An increase of 24% damage instead of an increase of 37.6%.

73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 27.7 (47.1 * 0.589) = 30.8%, 69.2% damage is taken.

An increase of 10.3% instead of an increase of 20.6%.

Hrmmm, looking at that 0 resist guy though:

0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.

Are we using the right formula for that negative DR? The same formula:
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))

Because as has been pointed out in this thread - those negative numbers get pretty heinous.

And, hrmm - it also creates a complicated issue, no? (as frtoaster pointed out)

Going back to that poor 0 resist guy:

He starts off with 0 resist (0 DRM/0% DR).
He shoots at somebody with APD up that ends up tagging him with the -47.1 debuff.
So his new DR would be: -84.4%
He's taking 184.4% damage.
With the APD still there, somebody else pegs him with APB which would apply a -37.8 debuff.
That gets modified by his current resistance though. (1-(-.844)); 1.844 * -37.8 = -69.7
So his new DR would be: -1456%
He's taking 1556% damage.
Before he can utter the curse, he's hit by T'varo Torp - which would apply a -33 debuff.
Again, that gets modified by his current resistance. (1-(-14.56)); 15.56 * -33 = -513.5
So his new DR would be: 67.7%
He's taking 32.3% damage.

So uh, yeah...is there a separate formula or a manner in which folks should try to figure out -DR?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 07-17-2013 at 03:08 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 123
07-17-2013, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Hawk, I could kiss you for that. That quote deserves to be framed and shown to all the people on the forum every time something like this pops up, no matter what it is. That just earned you some MAJOR brownie points in my book.

Question: Was this same issue happening on ground Disruptor weapons as well? If yes, is that also getting fixed?
Fair play to him, and I apologise for my angry rant of a post, it's just annoying that this has been broken since launch, I finally invest in mark 12 purple consoles and the fix it's less than a week later.

Just typical timing.

I apologise Hawk, I know you're only doing what is best for the game
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 254
# 124
07-17-2013, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
so getting a response from a dev/mod is considerd a "reward"?
like: good job boy here is yha coockie?

sorry, but some players here pay your loan at the end of the month!
so i dont think its smart to consider giving attention to the playersbase is a reward,and to have such an attitude with it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,664
# 125
07-17-2013, 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Quick replying to thread - my example using percentage values was hypothetical. Disruptor debuff was and still will be a flat resistance rating debuff - I just wanted to explain the underlying principle of Resistance resisting changes to resistance, and that was numerically easier to demonstrate with a percentage case than a flat debuff case.
I understand that you were trying to simplify things for us, but sometimes this creates more confusion than just telling us how it actually works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
So the 0 resistance guy would remain the same...
...but the following two would go from SandyBrown to YellowGreen then?

37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 34.4 (47.1 * 0.63) = 3%, meaning 97% damage is taken.

An increase of 24% damage instead of an increase of 37.6%.

73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 27.7 (47.1 * 0.589) = 30.8%, 69.2% damage is taken.

An increase of 10.3% instead of an increase of 20.6%.

Hrmmm, looking at that 0 resist guy though:

0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.

Are we using the right formula for that negative DR? The same formula:
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))

Because as has been pointed out in this thread - those negative numbers get pretty heinous.

And, hrmm - it also creates a complicated issue, no? (as frtoaster pointed out)

Going back to that poor 0 resist guy:

He starts off with 0 resist (0 DRM/0% DR).
He shoots at somebody with APD up that ends up tagging him with the -47.1 debuff.
So his new DR would be: -84.4%
He's taking 184.4% damage.
With the APD still there, somebody else pegs him with APB which would apply a -37.8 debuff.
That gets modified by his current resistance though. (1-(-.844)); 1.844 * -37.8 = -69.7
So his new DR would be: -1456%
He's taking 1556% damage.
Before he can utter the curse, he's hit by T'varo Torp - which would apply a -33 debuff.
Again, that gets modified by his current resistance. (1-(-14.56)); 15.56 * -33 = -513.5
So his new DR would be: 67.7%
He's taking 32.3% damage.

So uh, yeah...is there a separate formula or a manner in which folks should try to figure out -DR?
I would also like to know what happens with negative damage resistance ratings. According to the formula we have, the resistance percentage approaches to minus infinity as the resistance rating approaches -150. Perhaps, one rarely sees negative resistance ratings of this magnitude. Still, this asymptotic behavior can't be desirable: it amplifies the effect of negative resistance ratings.

A separate question I have is how shield resistance debuffs work: Is there are separate formula for that, or does it work just like shield resistance buffs, but with signs reversed?
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 486
# 126
07-17-2013, 03:56 PM
This is so lulzy all about nothing, hahaha.

Phasers still rule, so does polaron.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 127
07-17-2013, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Well I wonder what will be hit next ... Phaser and Plasma were hit (and Antiproton long ago), now Disruptor ... I guess that leaves Polaron to be the one taking a hit next.
Oh come on and wake up. The proc for Disruptors is to reduce damage resistance to ALL damage by a flat amount not ALL damage except for Disruptor damage. It's a blatantly, blindingly obvious is a bug.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,630
# 128
07-17-2013, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgressistance View Post
so getting a response from a dev/mod is considerd a "reward"?
like: good job boy here is yha coockie?

sorry, but some players here pay your loan at the end of the month!
so i dont think its smart to consider giving attention to the playersbase is a reward,and to have such an attitude with it.
LOL

Dude I heard you moaning in Opvp this morning as well.

Get over it... the dev has set the record right.

No matter how much we QQ about something it doesn't get a fix unless it is in fact broken.

In this case yes we all know it was broken. I don't know what patch along the way broke it but we all know that it was broken by accident at some point.

Disruptors used to be an ok weapon that was pretty balanced but not insane... and it really didn't matter if you where a Science Engi or Tac captain they did about the same debuff.

At some point they broke that... if I had to guess it would be code tied to the same code that for awhile was giving massive resist numbers to Attack Pattern Delta via tactical buffs.

In any event it will be fixed shortly so get over it.

Run Disruptors if you like still they are still quite viable... they are still one of the only wepaon types that allows you to stack a ton of procs thanks to lockbox weapons.

I have 1 or 2 toons that are running disruptors now and they will be later as well.

If you don't want to run them anymore cause there not broken any longer feel free to grab a set of polarons or tetryons or phasers... or phased polaron or phased tetryon... or perhaps be wild and grab some APs... bottom line is you shouldn't see to much difference in your DPS numbers... Base dmg is always base dmg... the procs are just nice little adds.

PS I also send $ there way... and I appreciate them WORKING on the game... I appreciate that they are willing to take a second or two to set people right as to why they in fact word during the day as well.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 354
# 129
07-17-2013, 04:57 PM
Please nerf alpha-strikes more ... it's not necessary to destroy a over 61k hitpoints + 12k shields engi cruiser with 1-2 shots. Some player can only fight this way.
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Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,162
# 130
07-17-2013, 05:03 PM
It's so funny reading people saying "you &^$%$*$ - why did you have to go a take the Disruptors unfair advantage away - that is so unfair!! I am going to stomp my feet till i get my unfair advantage back!!"
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