Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 119
# 31
04-25-2013, 09:29 PM
Now, I like Voyager, mostly for the character development (something sorely lacking in Star Trek until late DS9.) But yeah, when Voyager was bad, it was REALLY bad, and when it was good, it was just pretty good. The only thing that made it work, when it did work, was the characters and their relationships. But there were times when even that couldn't save the show. The Doctor and Seven defining what it means to be human and alive are some of the most interesting aspects of any Star Trek show. Unfortunately, they never really seemed to know what to do with their fantastic characters, leading to a bunch of stories that were just kinda "meh."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,148
# 32
04-25-2013, 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trek21 View Post
Voyager was more inconsistent than anything imo: it had good episodes, the 'safe standbys' of the franchise, really bad ones, and better ones like 'Year of Hell'.

Enterprise... not entirely sure whether it was a worse kind of inconsistent than Voyager, or simply bad overall. Jury's still out on that one for me, but it did have it's moments (mostly in the last season).
The last season of Enterprise is where they finally started to get their act together but by then the damage was done.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,476
# 33
04-25-2013, 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
Now, I like Voyager, mostly for the character development (something sorely lacking in Star Trek until late DS9.) But yeah, when Voyager was bad, it was REALLY bad, and when it was good, it was just pretty good. The only thing that made it work, when it did work, was the characters and their relationships. But there were times when even that couldn't save the show. The Doctor and Seven defining what it means to be human and alive are some of the most interesting aspects of any Star Trek show. Unfortunately, they never really seemed to know what to do with their fantastic characters, leading to a bunch of stories that were just kinda "meh."
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
The last season of Enterprise is where they finally started to get their act together but by then the damage was done.
I concur with both of the above sentiments. Though really, the first two seasons of Enterprise were no worse than the first two seasons of TNG and DS9. The only reason they killed Enterprise is that fans were burned out from fifteen years of constant Trek, and when the new series didn't immediately satisfy them they tuned out.

For what it's worth, I think Enterprise as a whole is an excellent addition to the Star Trek universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nadiezja View Post
Cynicism doesn't make you awesome. It just makes you cynical. And hating everything while still hanging out on the forums to complain makes you look a little sociopathic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 119
# 34
04-25-2013, 10:11 PM
What I think really killed Enterprise was the total disregard for canon. Even the Temporal Cold War concept seemed to me to be just an excuse to ignore canon whenever it suited the writers. It seemed especially egregious to ignore the two canon wars that were a fundamental part of the foundation of the Federation (the Romulan War and the Klingon War) and instead create a brand new alien, try to give them some importance (don't kill the Xindi, they'll be awesomesauce in a war a gajillion years from now!) and do a whole series arc about a war with them, when the fandom is already war-weary from DS9 doing the Dominion War for pretty much its entire run. It just felt like a slap in the face, and a total disregard for a franchise that, at its core, is about peaceful exploration to keep descending into war.

Now, the irony here is, a lot of what I blast bout Enterprise is what I hail about the reboots. HOWEVER, the reboots are intended be a fresh continuity, breaking away from everything that had been established prior. Enterprise was SUPPOSED to fit into all the pre-established continuity, and failed miserably at it. The whole premise of the reboot is that everything that went before is gone: from here on out, anything goes.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,295
# 35
04-25-2013, 10:12 PM
I think the problem with Enterprise is the same thing with this game and the JJ universe...when fans are presented with something different they don't like it. TNG created a formula that was replicated in DS9 and Voyager. If I have to deal with another holo deck gone wrong episode I would stab myself in the temple with a sharp piece of ice. Or the different crew member that learns what it means to be human ala Data/Odo/Seven of Nine.

That being said the only issue I had with Enterprise was the tech didnt look like it would evolve into TOS tech.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,295
# 36
04-25-2013, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
What I think really killed Enterprise was the total disregard for canon. Even the Temporal Cold War concept seemed to me to be just an excuse to ignore canon whenever it suited the writers. It seemed especially egregious to ignore the two canon wars that were a fundamental part of the foundation of the Federation (the Romulan War and the Klingon War) and instead create a brand new alien, try to give them some importance (don't kill the Xindi, they'll be awesomesauce in a war a gajillion years from now!) and do a whole series arc about a war with them, when the fandom is already war-weary from DS9 doing the Dominion War for pretty much its entire run. It just felt like a slap in the face, and a total disregard for a franchise that, at its core, is about peaceful exploration to keep descending into war.

Now, the irony here is, a lot of what I blast bout Enterprise is what I hail about the reboots. HOWEVER, the reboots are intended be a fresh continuity, breaking away from everything that had been established prior. Enterprise was SUPPOSED to fit into all the pre-established continuity, and failed miserably at it. The whole premise of the reboot is that everything that went before is gone: from here on out, anything goes.
I dont think people were war dearly...just DS9 had a very sanitized version of war. Half way through their run Battlestar Galactica comes out and shows people you can have an adult drama in space with war and not be cliche.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 119
# 37
04-25-2013, 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khan5000 View Post
That being said the only issue I had with Enterprise was the tech didnt look like it would evolve into TOS tech.
Enterprise had WAY more issues than that, but it was one.

It really became glaring in that some things really did look like primitive descendents of future Star Trek tech, and others didn't.

The phase pistols, for instance, I thought were brilliant. They looked like big, bulky guns that could eventually be streamlined into the phasers from later Trek shows. The PADDs looked like they could have walked off of the Next Gen sets, though, and the tricorders were probably the most compact and high-tech looking they'd ever been in ANY Trek show, without sacrificing any utility! I'd honestly rather have seen tricorders that looked more like modern Giger counters, complete with sensor attached by a cord (and giving it that classic "whirring" sound would have been a nice allusion to the later detachable probes from the various medical tricorders.)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,476
# 38
04-25-2013, 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
It seemed especially egregious to ignore the two canon wars that were a fundamental part of the foundation of the Federation (the Romulan War and the Klingon War)
Not sure what Klingon War you're referring to, but the Romulans were a big part of Season 4. Two major story arcs directly involved them, and it was leading up to the outbreak of open war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
and instead create a brand new alien, try to give them some importance (don't kill the Xindi, they'll be awesomesauce in a war a gajillion years from now!)
It was more like "don't let the Xindi destroy Earth". If they had, the Federation would never have existed and the Sphere Builders would have conquered the galaxy. The Xindi themselves were more like pawns to the Sphere Builders than anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nadiezja View Post
Cynicism doesn't make you awesome. It just makes you cynical. And hating everything while still hanging out on the forums to complain makes you look a little sociopathic.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,148
# 39
04-25-2013, 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khan5000 View Post
I think the problem with Enterprise is the same thing with this game and the JJ universe...when fans are presented with something different they don't like it. TNG created a formula that was replicated in DS9 and Voyager. If I have to deal with another holo deck gone wrong episode I would stab myself in the temple with a sharp piece of ice. Or the different crew member that learns what it means to be human ala Data/Odo/Seven of Nine.

That being said the only issue I had with Enterprise was the tech didnt look like it would evolve into TOS tech.
Every series had it's good and bad, it's not really a matter of different, but if you are trying to market something to fans of a franchise you are expected to meet those fan's expectations, when you make a prequel you have to be very careful to make it fit with the history of the franchise, Enterprise failed at that miserably. There are so many things they could have done with Enterprise that would have made for a good story that would have had nothing to do with the Borg, Ferenghi or time traveling alien space nazis. They could have made a ship that looked more primitive than the TOS Enterprise rather than a knock off of a design 200 years more advanced, they could have shown more about the founding races of the Federation rather than concentrating on alien races that would never be heard of again. So much potential, wasted. That is what really killed the series and that only served to accelerate fan burnout.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Oh Hell NO to ARC........One Ring to Rule Them all........
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,899
# 40
04-25-2013, 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
Enterprise had WAY more issues than that, but it was one.

It really became glaring in that some things really did look like primitive descendents of future Star Trek tech, and others didn't.

The phase pistols, for instance, I thought were brilliant. They looked like big, bulky guns that could eventually be streamlined into the phasers from later Trek shows. The PADDs looked like they could have walked off of the Next Gen sets, though, and the tricorders were probably the most compact and high-tech looking they'd ever been in ANY Trek show, without sacrificing any utility! I'd honestly rather have seen tricorders that looked more like modern Giger counters, complete with sensor attached by a cord (and giving it that classic "whirring" sound would have been a nice allusion to the later detachable probes from the various medical tricorders.)
*Flicks from one internet explore tab to the other on his windows phone and bangs out this response in twelve seconds with predictive typing while listening to The Who*

Uh huh.
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