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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 18,396
# 21
04-29-2013, 01:05 AM
Currently (funny how often this actually changes or does not change), I have the following for Eng BOFFs:

Chel Grett (Eng)
EPtW1, AtS1
EPtS1

w/ 3x DCE

Mirror Deep Space (Sci)
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtA1

w/ 0 DCE

Mirror Advanced (Tac)
EPtW1, EPtS2
w/ 3x DCE

Mirror Star (Eng)
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2

w/ 0 DCE

Jem'Hadar Escort Carrier (Eng)
EPtS1, AtS1, EWP1
EPtS1, RSP1

w/ 0 DCE

Hegh'ta Heavy BoP (Sci)
N/A
N/A

Mirror Vo'Quv (Tac)
EPtS1, RSP1, AtS2
EPtW1, ET2

w/ 3x DCE

Mirror Vor'cha (Eng)
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2

w/ 0 DCE

Outside of the Sci BoP (neither Eng nor Tac BOFFs), everybody is running 2x EPtX or EPtX/EPtY. The Fed Sci is not using DCE DOFFs, because he's not "chaining" EPtS1 and EPtA1. They're being used as needed.

To be honest, that's how I feel the abilities actually should be. Used as needed - not always used.

Course, that does make me a hypocrite - since the six remaining guys currently all chain (usually with zero downtime) their EPtX abilities. And to be honest, perhaps even with the change - given what they're boosting on EPtA, I was looking at doing 2x EPtA1 on the Sci.

I mean, c'mon - there's 10 copies of EPtS up there on 8 toons where one of the toons doesn't even have any Eng BOFFs. There's another four EPtX abilities as well. 14 EPtX abilities on 7 toons.

Cause face it, uh - there's not really much one can do with Eng slots compared to Tac or Sci (yes, I've gotten up on my soapbox more than once on that matter.../cough). More on that later though.

So what does it look like now and what will it look like with the current change for each of them?

Currently (funny how often this actually changes or does not change), I have the following for Eng BOFFs:

Chel Grett (Eng)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.

Mirror Deep Space (Sci)
15s gap between EPtS1. Partial 15s gap between EPtA1. +Stealth Detection from EPtA1 only lasts 5s.
25s gap between EPtS1. 25s gap between EPtA1. +Stealth Detection lasts 20s.

Mirror Advanced (Tac)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.

Mirror Star (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.

Jem'Hadar Escort Carrier (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.

Hegh'ta Heavy BoP (Sci)
N/A
N/A

Mirror Vo'Quv (Tac)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.

Mirror Vor'cha (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.

The 1x EPtX guy went from 15s to 25s. It's one thing to cover 15s and it's another to cover 25s...

The EPtX/EPtY guys face a 10s gap. Well, I've been covering 15s gap here and there on various toons over the past year or so...so yeah, that's manageable and pretty nifty with the 20s secondary buff on the EPtW/A/E matching that buff on the EPtS. Course, oddly enough 20s of +Dmg works out to be less than 25s of not having it with 10s additional weapon power. Weird, eh? So kind of meh there...

The 2x EPtX guys face a 5s gap every 40s. Unlike the 10s gap for the EPtX/EPtY guys, this 5s gap can actually be reduced. Heck, 2pc MACO drops it to 2.9s. Am I really even going to notice something that's going to be so short - and - a gap that's so easy to cover? Not likely...

So uh...yeah, that's not very balanced in the least is it?

Was the idea to stop folks from running 2x EPtS? Well, obviously that can't be the case...cause it's the best option with the changes they've made.

Was the idea to get folks to try different combinations of EPtX/EPtY? Er...by making 2x EPtX the most attractive choice? Yeah, don't think so.

Was it a case of trying to cut down on the spamming of EPtX abilities? Well, not with that 2x EPtX option there.

So it goes around and around...and around...and around...just what were they trying to do?

Which kind of gets into that "more later" thing - cause the rumor I heard was that the EPtX changes were part of a larger change being looked at with regard to Eng BOFFs which would include additional abilities. Yes, I'm a sucker for those rumors. Like I said, I've done more than my fair share of pointing out the issues with a lack of Eng BOFFs and the myriad of problems that creates on other levels.

Cause face it, looking at these changes - I can't see any sense in them. Sure, we know that we they nerf something - they like to lubricate that with a little extra something, a little buff. But is the 20s EPtA/E/W secondary thing a buff...or...just finally fixing them in comparison to EPtS? Was the nerf because of that buff? Just...well, what's going on?

Was it a case that more wanted to be done with the Eng BOFFs - but it's not looking like it can get done? Well, if that's the case - then revert this stuff and then tackle it again when everything can be done, eh?

If there's some reasoning behind it that I'm completely missing...hey, maybe a couple of lines about what that is?

It's one thing not to like a change...it's another to have no freaking clue why it's actually being made.
Willard the Rat, Klingon, Sci (60), U.S.S. Tong Vey, Geneva Command Battlecruiser (FT6), Inner Circle
Meena, Ferasan, Tac (60), I.K.S. vagh SuD bas, B'rel Retrofit Bird-of-Prey (T5U), Ho'ragh
[WIP] No-Fleet, T5U B'rel Retrofit Build


Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,519
# 22
04-29-2013, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's one of those things, where I picture it this way...

Say there's 5-8+ threads on a matter. Each gets 1-4, 5-10 pages in it. Then it kind of drops off as the next one picks up. Say they're in different sections of the forums, so it's kind of spread out that way as well.

It gets diluted.

If there were one thread - where it was constantly bumped because folks were still trying to get the dev's attention on the matter...well, that shows a certain unity.

It's not a case that I do not think that it needs to be brought up and that the devs need to reply...it's just getting difficult to keep track of all the threads personally. Does it become a case of copying comments from one thread to the other to the other to the other to the other? Do we all just end up quoting ourselves from other threads?

Heck, with the initial change - I pointed out something in one of the threads which I thought people were ignoring while they argued over other parts. Then wham bam, sure enough, Cryptic went and did what I warned they would do...so other people started arguing about that as well.

It would be nifty if the devs could give us a mission statement, a goal, what they're hoping to accomplish with the changes. Cause for the life of me, with the first change - could kind of guess what they might be doing...wasn't working, but at least one could see they were trying to do something. The second change - just seemed like spite - made no sense at all...like the devs were throwing a tantrum because of the complaints received about the first change.

To be fair, some folks did go pretty hard after the new guy...and that was wrong...

...but it kind of turned into the don't complain about your steak, cause who knows what they'll do to it before they send it back, eh?
I see your point. I didn't really intend for this to become another discussion thread (cause I think it's all been said more than clearly and it actually seems quite a lot of people agree). I just wanted to raise a very visible banner (new thread with a Dev nick in the title) with a relatively short and concise message. Not sure if that worked, we'll see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
So uh...yeah, that's not very balanced in the least is it?

Was the idea to stop folks from running 2x EPtS? Well, obviously that can't be the case...cause it's the best option with the changes they've made.

Was the idea to get folks to try different combinations of EPtX/EPtY? Er...by making 2x EPtX the most attractive choice? Yeah, don't think so.

Was it a case of trying to cut down on the spamming of EPtX abilities? Well, not with that 2x EPtX option there.

So it goes around and around...and around...and around...just what were they trying to do?

Which kind of gets into that "more later" thing - cause the rumor I heard was that the EPtX changes were part of a larger change being looked at with regard to Eng BOFFs which would include additional abilities. Yes, I'm a sucker for those rumors. Like I said, I've done more than my fair share of pointing out the issues with a lack of Eng BOFFs and the myriad of problems that creates on other levels.

Cause face it, looking at these changes - I can't see any sense in them. Sure, we know that we they nerf something - they like to lubricate that with a little extra something, a little buff. But is the 20s EPtA/E/W secondary thing a buff...or...just finally fixing them in comparison to EPtS? Was the nerf because of that buff? Just...well, what's going on?

Was it a case that more wanted to be done with the Eng BOFFs - but it's not looking like it can get done? Well, if that's the case - then revert this stuff and then tackle it again when everything can be done, eh?

If there's some reasoning behind it that I'm completely missing...hey, maybe a couple of lines about what that is?

It's one thing not to like a change...it's another to have no freaking clue why it's actually being made.
Agreed. They came from trying to make non-EPtS EPtX abilities more used/useful to making them much harder to use (since twice EPtS is pretty much the only efficient and useful strategy now for many). Which makes no sense.

I really hope there's something more coming. Either another change to EPtX powers, or some new possibilities in lower Eng Boff slots, or something else entirely. The way it is now looks half baked and I'm afraid it might remain that way for a very long time ("Don't worry, players, we are working on the situation of Engineering Boff abilities. We'll have a general idea on the table 'soon'." - Comes to mind as a possible Dev response.). And that 'fright' leads me (and clearly many more) to start many threads and write many posts.

So if there is another change coming (and the current mess would point to a logical "Yes, there must be."), it has to come before this current mess goes live.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!

Last edited by toiva; 04-29-2013 at 08:21 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 23
04-29-2013, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toiva View Post
....

I really hope there's something more coming. Either another change to EPtX powers, or some new possibilities in lower Eng Boff slots, or something else entirely. The way it is now looks half baked and I'm afraid it might remain that way for a very long time ("Don't worry, players, we are working on the situation of Engineering Boff abilities. We'll have a general idea on the table 'soon'." - Comes to mind as a possible Dev response.). And that 'fright' leads me (and clearly many more) to start many threads and write many posts.

So if there is another change coming (and the current mess would point to a logical "Yes, there must be."), it has to come before this current mess goes live.
In light of past performance, I d expect the new Eng BO abilities that are the missing piece of the puzzle, to go live no sooner then 2020. Until then EptX will get the shaft presented in the tribble patch notes.
with a shinney WAD stamp of Geko approval.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 844
# 24
04-29-2013, 08:54 AM
As a cruiser captain on the holodeck
I can say this change to the EPtx will relegate cruiser to the obscolete pile

II for one do not like this change as it is cruisers are hurting for way to many reasons and the only way they are usefull is as tanks and if you do go live with the EPtx changes you just made every cruiser in the game worthless.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 368
# 25
04-29-2013, 08:56 AM
Testing I did on Tribble for the downtimes.

Triple EPtX user: No downtime

Dual EPtX user: 5 second downtime every 40 seconds (12.5% downtime)

EPtX/EPtY user: 10 second downtime per each set every 30 seconds (33.33% downtime)

Damage Control Engineers, Technicians (for AtB builds), and the MACO 2 pc set does not reduce the global between EPtX and EPtY.

The added benefits to EPtW, EPtE, and EPtS are nice, won't deny that. The global cooldown between the different types of EPtX abilities remaining at 15 seconds, will prevent most people from using anything other than EPtS.

My Engineer will be a Triple EPtS user if this goes live as is. On live he chains EPtW and EPtS; with these changes it would be very detrimental to keep it. I use EPtW to help combat the weapon power drain. Being unable to use that ability, while still being able to tank, pretty much kills cruisers.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 26
04-29-2013, 12:43 PM
The fact that developers have responded several times to people's concerns about the D'deridex saying that its layout was only a work in progress, and the fact that they have *NOT* responded to the loudier and angier concerns about EPTx, suggests that it's not something they were planning further changes for. At this point I guess that they are weighing the value of following their design goals against the negative value of pissing off a lot of people. As Geko said, "Every time you change something you annoy somebody" (paraphrase); but in this case there's enough reasoned arguments against the change that it doesn't feel like contrarian inertia to dispute it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 27
04-29-2013, 12:45 PM
There is a difference between annoying somebody, and everyone
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 687
# 28
04-29-2013, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
However, there are rumors (/cough) that the changes to EPtX are but merely part of a larger plan addressing Engineering BOFFs. Without repeating that rumor, I was wondering if there was any official comment in regard to that. If so, it could do wonders to alleviate at least part of the issue being raised...
That must be pure speculation, because putting just half of a solution on Tribble would be astoundingly boneheaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acejim View Post
As my collegues here in the forums have pointed out, there are not many Ensign level Engineer powers besides EPtoX powers and Engineering team.
Not many? Don't you mean to say there aren't any?

Last edited by tinkerstorm; 04-29-2013 at 01:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 844
# 29
04-29-2013, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
The fact that developers have responded several times to people's concerns about the D'deridex saying that its layout was only a work in progress, and the fact that they have *NOT* responded to the loudier and angier concerns about EPTx, suggests that it's not something they were planning further changes for. At this point I guess that they are weighing the value of following their design goals against the negative value of pissing off a lot of people. As Geko said, "Every time you change something you annoy somebody" (paraphrase); but in this case there's enough reasoned arguments against the change that it doesn't feel like contrarian inertia to dispute it.
You make a very compelling point and i think that this EPtx change may be in part to the singularity ability of the roms.
It is possible with the current EPtx as is live to become almost unbeatable in a warbird using chains and the singularity quantum absorption atribute.
However if this does go live they had better do something for both KDF and FED ships to balance out this issue or cruiser become useless unless your a romulan.
My thought is to introduce a warp field ability similar to the singularity that the feds and kdf can use that would balance this whole thing out aswell as the EPtx changes.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 18,396
# 30
04-29-2013, 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerstorm View Post
That must be pure speculation, because putting just half of a solution on Tribble would be astoundingly boneheaded.
They tend to test things in isolation, unfortunately. That's why there tends to be so many issues when things are used in conjunction with other things.
Willard the Rat, Klingon, Sci (60), U.S.S. Tong Vey, Geneva Command Battlecruiser (FT6), Inner Circle
Meena, Ferasan, Tac (60), I.K.S. vagh SuD bas, B'rel Retrofit Bird-of-Prey (T5U), Ho'ragh
[WIP] No-Fleet, T5U B'rel Retrofit Build


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