Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 1 Manheim Console - On its own
05-01-2013, 07:30 AM
Manheim Console

My Goal with this is to look at this console on its own as some people do not have the EC to get the Wells or other Temporal Sets. So lets take the other consoles out and look at this console as is.

Manheim Console, Ideas on how to improve/fix the console that has been nicknamed "The Suicide Console". Issues for all of the deaths is the poor AI, most of the time flying into warp core explosions by the past ship. All and all the concept of a past ship and future ship coming to your aid is fun, exciting but the risk of doing so is very high as compared to what is gained by using that power. I have also had the experience with a nasty little bug, when the timer out and if the ship was under fire(even though it has full health) I still blow up. They are Quantum duplicates from the past/future that do not share any of your weapons/bridge officer abilities, consoles. Also seeing AI Agro the past ship right off the bat when summoning the ships.

Here are a slew of ideas, most are bad ideas but they are ideas none the less to get more coming in and discussion going:
If there is a chance to die whenever we use it at no fault of our own, buff it to make it worth the risk. Either that cause a penalty if the past ship dies but not death. I am not looking for an I Win, but this console is horrible on its own.

Leave the death the way it is, but make them true copies of your ship. Any and every ability you click, activates on both ships, the idea/theory being they are you, they would know what you would do and would mirror/mimic your actions. Now if you died, it is no fault but your own, you get the extra and bonus DPS with still the risk but it would be worth it.
or
As they are Quantum Duplicates - Have the past one warp from this time back to their own before certain death and same with the future, make it like the other ship summons. I do think as this is a console and takes up a slot, maybe a damage boost for the past duplicate and a resistance boost for the future which gives the enemies reasons to shoot at them.
or
Make them a Toggle ability - Give us the ability to turn them on / off
- If this is done add the two ships to the HUD for easier reference of their Shields/Hull and able to target them for heals easier (F1-F5 is team / F6/7 for your duplicates)
or
Make it call two of your future Selfs to come through, if they take out the (early) past ship it would take out the (later) past ship - this way your buffs still apply to both
or
Keep it as is - reduce the global cooldown and they last 60 seconds or until they die / if the past ship blows up it takes out 50% of your current hull/shields


entire threads here of people stating it is a death trap and bank it
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...hlight=manheim
and
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...hlight=manheim
and
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...hlight=manheim
and
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...hlight=manheim

Quotes from threads not from the above -
There have been plenty of threads on this console...
Quote:
Originally Posted by topset View Post
Yes. I dubbed the console "My suicide button" - once the novelty wore off, I banked the console and replaced it with a purple monotanium XII console instead. Much more useful!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
I also have the full Temporal Warfare set and both Temporal ship consoles. However, I stopped using the Manheim Device since it is too big a liability in its present form. I did not bother re-spec'ing on my tac for GW or any other sci abilities since our cannons and torps do the best talking I do use gravity well to pull my PVE targets into a tight cluster for my HYT3 Romulan hyper-plasma torp chains in PVE. For PVP, I stay with standard quantum torpedo launchers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
Bugsplatter: Yes, the Manheim console is next to useless without the Tipler console to back it up. Even then its only useful in some circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugspatteredjack View Post
Yeah....essentially the console itself is point/worthless without the counterpart from the Wells. Never even bothered to try using it and stick to pure DPS build myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more with that. Sure the Manheim is useless, but the tipler is just about the ultimate "oh ****" button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdm1958 View Post
i also have the tipler and make a point to never use the manheim device aka "suicide console".
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 95
# 2
05-01-2013, 11:11 AM
The console works fine, you just have to know when to use it.

If your healing abilities are on cooldown don't activate it. It's best used at the start of a fight or near the end to help finish off a target. Since your quantum copies use anti-proton weapons they can really boost your damage output. I use this console in every Elite STF I fly with my Mobius or Wells and never have any trouble.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 273
# 3
05-01-2013, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemetzel View Post
The console works fine, you just have to know when to use it.

If your healing abilities are on cooldown don't activate it. It's best used at the start of a fight or near the end to help finish off a target. Since your quantum copies use anti-proton weapons they can really boost your damage output. I use this console in every Elite STF I fly with my Mobius or Wells and never have any trouble.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.
Perhaps you might elaborate on it's proper usage?

In PvP it's tantamount to a death sentence. All I can think of would be using it with photonic fleet and other spam to make targeting the duplicates inconvenient. The AI is horrible. For a bunch of copies that are supposed to be close to your own level of ability they are nowhere near it.

I'd make them spawn with all the same buffs/ powers that your ship has active when activated. Perhaps lower the rate of damage transfer.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 4
05-01-2013, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocp001 View Post
Perhaps you might elaborate on it's proper usage?

In PvP it's tantamount to a death sentence. All I can think of would be using it with photonic fleet and other spam to make targeting the duplicates inconvenient. The AI is horrible. For a bunch of copies that are supposed to be close to your own level of ability they are nowhere near it.

I'd make them spawn with all the same buffs/ powers that your ship has active when activated. Perhaps lower the rate of damage transfer.
In Pvp it is even a bigger waste, look for the ship that spawns in the rear and super easy kill. It is a bad enough console in PVE and even worse in PVP.

Also heals on cooldown or not it does not matter, if that past ship goes boom so do you. There is no easy way for you to track it, would be nice if they popped onto the HUD like team members.

Last edited by liquidraven26; 05-01-2013 at 11:55 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 95
# 5
05-01-2013, 11:50 AM
I've used it in PvP without issue. You just need to know when to activate it. If you're taking a lot of fire don't use it, if you're almost dead, don't use it. Use it to help keep up your DPS while you heal up since you can focus on evading and healing and have the two copies provide supporting fire. Yes the AI isn't amazing but the ships use Anti-Proton weapons, tractor beams and fire Chroniton torps. The STOWiki has a great post on how the damage transfer works too:
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Manheim_Effect
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 47
# 6
05-01-2013, 11:51 AM
The pets themselves need a boost in damage and utility, however the biggest drawback is the instant death when they blow up.

I propose perhaps a 3-5 second disable (stun) instead of death. That would balance it enough to not make it OP while also not making them useless...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 95
# 7
05-01-2013, 12:10 PM
You only share a portion of your past copy, not the future one and it's only hull damage at that. Hazard Emitters are great when the ability is activated as it reduces spike damage taken.
Even on the Wells it's extremely useful not just for the actual copies but the set bonus as well. The Timeships are incredibly powerful with both the Temporal Warfare and Temporal sets and I've used them in tandem with the Borg weapon and ship sets to great effect.

Seriously, the Manheim Device console works fine.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 8
05-01-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemetzel View Post
I've used it in PvP without issue. You just need to know when to activate it. If you're taking a lot of fire don't use it, if you're almost dead, don't use it. Use it to help keep up your DPS while you heal up since you can focus on evading and healing and have the two copies provide supporting fire. Yes the AI isn't amazing but the ships use Anti-Proton weapons, tractor beams and fire Chroniton torps. The STOWiki has a great post on how the damage transfer works too:
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Manheim_Effect
I know how it works. Hence why one of my minor sugguestions to improve it if worse comes to worse is to pop them on the hud so I can hit an F(#) key to quickly target them aka babysit their health. That alone would do leaps of help in usefulness.

As for this thread I am staying away from the temporal sets as not everyone has it. While yes you say it works fine, if you look through the threads I linked in the original thread you will see many disagree that it is fine. Again Hazard emitters on you do not work offset the past ship blowing up.

Last edited by liquidraven26; 05-01-2013 at 12:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,363
# 9
05-01-2013, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionlyth View Post
The pets themselves need a boost in damage and utility, however the biggest drawback is the instant death when they blow up.

I propose perhaps a 3-5 second disable (stun) instead of death. That would balance it enough to not make it OP while also not making them useless...

This.


Knock two subsystems (random) offline and put all abilities on a 15 second cooldown.


You're being crippled temporarily for your "past copy" blowing up.



Past copy was in quotations because they're NOT copies, if they were then they'd be using AT LEAST the same weapons as me.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 10
05-01-2013, 02:23 PM
I think having your past self warp out at 10% health would solve all problems. It's like a photonic fleet but with better ships and costing you a console slot....all things considered that's a good way to balance it. That or make the 10% warp out thing a set bonus as the tiller gets a bonus.
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