Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 11
05-01-2013, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I think having your past self warp out at 10% health would solve all problems. It's like a photonic fleet but with better ships and costing you a console slot....all things considered that's a good way to balance it. That or make the 10% warp out thing a set bonus as the tiller gets a bonus.
Exactly, something as simple as this would fix all of the issues with this console.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 462
# 12
05-03-2013, 10:37 AM
I like it, it synergizes well with my Go Down Fighting ability.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 13
05-03-2013, 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemetzel View Post
The console works fine, you just have to know when to use it.

If your healing abilities are on cooldown don't activate it. It's best used at the start of a fight or near the end to help finish off a target. Since your quantum copies use anti-proton weapons they can really boost your damage output. I use this console in every Elite STF I fly with my Mobius or Wells and never have any trouble.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemetzel View Post
I've used it in PvP without issue. You just need to know when to activate it. If you're taking a lot of fire don't use it, if you're almost dead, don't use it. Use it to help keep up your DPS while you heal up since you can focus on evading and healing and have the two copies provide supporting fire. Yes the AI isn't amazing but the ships use Anti-Proton weapons, tractor beams and fire Chroniton torps. The STOWiki has a great post on how the damage transfer works too:
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Manheim_Effect

Everytime my fleet mate has used the Manheim Device, even at a safe distance, I made him pay dearly by simply destroying the rear-spawning pet, then promptly finishing him off since his heals could not protect what little hull he had left. The last time I checked, damage transferred (almost) fully from past clone to present ship, so even with hull heals available, I had little trouble popping the Manheim user. 50% damage transferrance is reasonable, but anything over 75% makes it a huge liability, making almost any other console more practical.

Seriously, the current Manheim device earns its "suicide" moniker for a reason -- it usually kills its user when facing organized PVP'ers.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 14
05-03-2013, 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
Everytime my fleet mate has used the Manheim Device, even at a safe distance, I made him pay dearly by simply destroying the rear-spawning pet, then promptly finishing him off since his heals could not protect what little hull he had left. The last time I checked, damage transferred (almost) fully from past clone to present ship, so even with hull heals available, I had little trouble popping the Manheim user. 50% damage transferrance is reasonable, but anything over 75% makes it a huge liability, making almost any other console more practical.

Seriously, the current Manheim device earns its "suicide" moniker for a reason -- it usually kills its user when facing organized PVP'ers.


I would like to thank everyone for there feedback on this issue as well as all of the new ideas.

Found this in another thread just today -

Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
Honestly, never, ever, ever bother with the Manheim device duplicate ships. Any damage done to the "past" duplicate also hits you, and since AI is dumb, it will often fly directly into warp core breaches, making it an instant suicide console in most cases.

Last edited by liquidraven26; 05-03-2013 at 11:22 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 431
# 15
05-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Since I've been quoted a lot in this thread, I may as well say my piece.

I hear some " It's not broken, don't need fixin'".

Yes, it IS possible to survive using the Manheim console. Having BFI running will help, as well having HE running, but it's not foolproof. If the past duplicate flies into a warp core breach (which, like deployed fighters, it does OFTEN), you WILL instadie. If you know it's about to happen, and you are very quick, the Tipler may save you. May, as in if the duplicate doesn't die in the breach, then dies 7 seconds later to anything else, you will then still die.

I HAVE had the despawning of the duplicates kill me. Now, this is unquestionably a bug, however, as it is tied in with the very mechanics of the pet, I'm betting it is so deep in the code, changing the ability would be easier.

I have gone from 100% health to dead from the duplicate taking 50% damage. No doubt this is some interaction of buffs/debuffs with the code, but again, if this stuff seeped in, as occasional as it is, its buried DEEP, and again would probably be easiest fixed by a change to the ability.

It's possible to totally bug your own ship's hit points by using certain abilities in combination on your ship and its duplicate. I've had it happen twice in single player instances and been unable to intentionally reproduce the exact combination, but it's there. Again, low level code interactions, buried deep.

The ability should never have been created using a new mechanic, it should have been a simple clone of Photonic Fleet or Fleet Support.

It's cool and all, but like the bizarre, zone-wide lag that can sometimes be produced by the 2-set version of Temporal Backstep, or the old Jem'Hadar+BFI doff bug, the introduction of new mechanics caused unforeseen consequences. This kind of things happen in MMOs when completely new things are added, and often result in rollbacks and emergency patches. Fortunately, the Temporal ships are hard to get and relatively rare, and rarer still are seen using the temporal consoles, making these irritants rather than true issues.

Fortunately, the Backstep lag is mostly gone, but the duplicates are still a mess. You may be able to use them effectively sometimes, even most of the time with practice, but instadeath, even rare instadeath, is poor game design. If it weren't, people wouldn't ever complain about Borg invisitorps.

According to Steam, I have logged 200 hours in STO since my last windows wipe 7 months ago. Almost all of that has been in the Mobius. I've played with the temporal toys a lot, and I love every one. Every one, that is, except for the aptly named "suicide console". If it results in even one unavoidable instadeath, it is broken. Period.

Cheers!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 16
05-03-2013, 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jornado View Post
Since I've been quoted a lot in this thread, I may as well say my piece.

I hear some " It's not broken, don't need fixin'".

Yes, it IS possible to survive using the Manheim console. Having BFI running will help, as well having HE running, but it's not foolproof. If the past duplicate flies into a warp core breach (which, like deployed fighters, it does OFTEN), you WILL instadie. If you know it's about to happen, and you are very quick, the Tipler may save you. May, as in if the duplicate doesn't die in the breach, then dies 7 seconds later to anything else, you will then still die.

I HAVE had the despawning of the duplicates kill me. Now, this is unquestionably a bug, however, as it is tied in with the very mechanics of the pet, I'm betting it is so deep in the code, changing the ability would be easier.

I have gone from 100% health to dead from the duplicate taking 50% damage. No doubt this is some interaction of buffs/debuffs with the code, but again, if this stuff seeped in, as occasional as it is, its buried DEEP, and again would probably be easiest fixed by a change to the ability.

It's possible to totally bug your own ship's hit points by using certain abilities in combination on your ship and its duplicate. I've had it happen twice in single player instances and been unable to intentionally reproduce the exact combination, but it's there. Again, low level code interactions, buried deep.

The ability should never have been created using a new mechanic, it should have been a simple clone of Photonic Fleet or Fleet Support.

It's cool and all, but like the bizarre, zone-wide lag that can sometimes be produced by the 2-set version of Temporal Backstep, or the old Jem'Hadar+BFI doff bug, the introduction of new mechanics caused unforeseen consequences. This kind of things happen in MMOs when completely new things are added, and often result in rollbacks and emergency patches. Fortunately, the Temporal ships are hard to get and relatively rare, and rarer still are seen using the temporal consoles, making these irritants rather than true issues.

Fortunately, the Backstep lag is mostly gone, but the duplicates are still a mess. You may be able to use them effectively sometimes, even most of the time with practice, but instadeath, even rare instadeath, is poor game design. If it weren't, people wouldn't ever complain about Borg invisitorps.

According to Steam, I have logged 200 hours in STO since my last windows wipe 7 months ago. Almost all of that has been in the Mobius. I've played with the temporal toys a lot, and I love every one. Every one, that is, except for the aptly named "suicide console". If it results in even one unavoidable instadeath, it is broken. Period.

Cheers!
I can and will drink to that - appreciate your time and words on this matter.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 17
06-14-2013, 11:59 AM
Now that LoR is out maybe the Dev's can take time to notice or comment this.

Name one other Console or power with such limited (great)Risk/(almost none)Reward??

please review the Suicide factor of this console.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 217
# 18
06-14-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemetzel View Post
I've used it in PvP without issue. You just need to know when to activate it. If you're taking a lot of fire don't use it, if you're almost dead, don't use it. Use it to help keep up your DPS while you heal up since you can focus on evading and healing and have the two copies provide supporting fire. Yes the AI isn't amazing but the ships use Anti-Proton weapons, tractor beams and fire Chroniton torps. The STOWiki has a great post on how the damage transfer works too:
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Manheim_Effect
Be wary of Area of Effect attacks, however. If both you and your past counterpart are hit, you will take your damage plus the damage done to your past counterpart, and your future counterpart will take its damage, as well as yours and your past counterpart's damage.
Keybind: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...&postcount=463
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Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 19
06-14-2013, 12:54 PM
The damage feedback explanation behind the Manheim console makes no sense. When the past and future quantum clones are created, they have to be pulled from divergent time lines so that the present ship can co-exist with them simultaneously. This also means that all three ships are independent and cannot pass damage back and forth to each other since they are divergent / parallel incarnations.

If the quantum clones are being pulled from the present time line, then the present ship will have to vanish a few minutes before and after combat to cover the "existence" time of both quantum clones.

As you can see, it's easy to poke holes in Cryptic's implementation of the Manheim Device. If damage feedback must be present for balance purposes, then I suggest drastically reducing all redirected damage values to make the console viable. Otherwise it will remain "the suicide console" for those who use it and don't know any better.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,004
# 20
06-14-2013, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
The damage feedback explanation behind the Manheim console makes no sense. When the past and future quantum clones are created, they have to be pulled from divergent time lines so that the present ship can co-exist with them simultaneously. This also means that all three ships are independent and cannot pass damage back and forth to each other since they are divergent / parallel incarnations.

If the quantum clones are being pulled from the present time line, then the present ship will have to vanish a few minutes before and after combat to cover the "existence" time of both quantum clones.

As you can see, it's easy to poke holes in Cryptic's implementation of the Manheim Device. If damage feedback must be present for balance purposes, then I suggest drastically reducing all redirected damage values to make the console viable. Otherwise it will remain "the suicide console" for those who use it and don't know any better.
If you think about how the "Manheim Effect" worked in TNG, the visual effect itself and the temporal entanglement between the quantum duplicates makes perfect sense.

They are not from divergent timelines. They are effectively "you" in superposition at different points in space where time has "rippled" on itself. As all of the copies are effectively entangled at the quantum level, it's reasonable to assume that what happens to one affects the others. If one of you dies, the others shouldn't be too far behind.

The problem is really in the implementation.

The copies really should be using the same weapons and powers, but they don't... probably because it would've been a nightmare to code. This way they can create a generic level-scaled NPC ally, slap your ship costume on it, and call it done.

The copies really should be doing everything you did, just a few seconds apart. Otherwise, the entanglement should be broken and create a divergent timeline. Broken entanglement is really the only thing that could save you from your fate... When one blows up when history says it didn't, this could result in all copies disappearing into a new timeline. One where Past Ship blew up, one where Present Ship got badly damaged, and one where Future Ship got off with minor damage.

Imagine this... You assume the part of the Future ship. The copies do everything you do and go where you went, only with a small delay. Future-You blast away at Enemy A, then target Enemy B.

While you're firing at Enemy B, Present-You fires the same volley at Enemy A. Future-You then target Enemy C.

While you're shooting Enemy C, Present-You shoots Enemy B, and Past-You shoots Enemy A. One would assume at this point that Enemy A is probably having a bad day if they aren't destroyed outright. Enemy B and Enemy C are just moments away from their own bad day.

That would probably be worth getting blown up for occasionally...

And yeah, it's not fun that your weak duplicates do stupid things you would never do and are targetable so that you're subject to instaboom. It should be accompanied by some kind of confuse effect or defense buff where your enemy can't reliably target any of you due to the time distortions.
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