Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 66
# 1 Dying art of shipbuilding
05-23-2013, 03:25 PM
Well I admit I like obscure, experimental builds but they are getting so unviable.

Hull regeneration builds are pretty much finished as of S7, along with several consoles that related to them. Photonic builds died a few weeks prior with it's shockwave torp.

Are there any viable ships anymore besides the USS Cookie-Cutter stacked with field generators and Romulan bridge officers?

Last edited by philipag; 05-23-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,482
# 2
05-23-2013, 04:00 PM
What does cookie cutter mean? I see people say it everywhere lol?

First things first, dps preferably spike damage (enough to take out a cruiser within 5 seconds), next find your defense gaps and close them!!!
I want an official persistent officer title.
**~Reality under scrutiny~**
@haudace
UFP Fleet: Operation Omega Task Force | KDF Fleet: KHG Klingon Honor Guard
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,118
# 3
05-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I've heard of people with an entire crew of veteran BOFFs, which gives them a boost to their base damage over someone who has Romulan BOFFs. My fleet mate used to tell me that the vet BOFF build was outdamaging his all Romulan BOFF.

Not sure how that's possible, since he had a pretty high critical hit.

Also, people still use field generators?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,530
# 4
05-23-2013, 04:31 PM
I believe 'cookie cutter' means "what everyone else is doing"-aka escorts with DHC, same boff layouts, same powers layouts, same settings, with the same captain traits, rep gear, etc. etc. etc.

It was observed by a noted humourist that "If you let people do whatever they want, they tend to do what everyone else is doing." (especially if it's encouraged)

We have a situation with how the powers, rules, passives, and gear are done where everyone IS doing pretty much the same thing, because the game mechanics tend to reward DOING that same thing.

but I'll disagree on something there-it's not the fault of the game mechanics, as much as the fault of how missions (both PvE, and PvP) are structured that is to blame here.

the way objectives are set, and matches arranged, DPS+Spike is king, it does everything, and any time content is changed so that it does NOT do everything, the majority of the population whines that it SHOULD.

Witness the nerfing of (for PvE) Hive Onslaught Elite (Hive space for those of us who think the doofy names are, well, doofy). In Tribble, before S7, it was a challenging mission that highlt the usefulness of Science captains and healers over raw DPS and big explosions. After the first month of qqing, it became another one of those missions you can do in five minutes with a team of TacScorts.

PvP is even MORE neglected-we have three general mission types:

Warzones (open PvP)
Arenas (DPS fest)
C&H (DPS Fest/Tanking).

These tend to favour pretty specific build types-even the Warzones (though, thankfully, the war-zones are 'open' enough that 'weird' builds are viable, unlike Arenas...)

for those three mission types we get:

3 Arena maps
2 Warzones (Ker'rat and N'Vak have differences, strangely enough)
1 C&H map.

making a total of 6 maps if you include the War zones and actually view them as different from one another, 5 maps if you include warzones but lump them together based on mission, as opposed to NPC terrain, or 4 maps total if you don't include the warzones.

of those, 1/2 to 3/4 of your available playgrounds for PvP (depending on whether you include Ker'rat/N'Vak or not) are pure DPS focused, 'balanced' matches where you're using bodycount to determine victory conditions. If you include the bodycount strategy of deployment suppression in C&H, it goes from 2/3 to 100% of the maps are DPS+Spike focused bodycount determined matches.

iow it's like our PvP was designed by William Westmoreland, rather than Patton, MacArthur, Schwartzkopf or Rommel.

There are some ways to fix this-most of them involve designing new PvP maps and scenarios.

For instance...

1,)"Convoy raid/convoy protection"- red team is the raiders, blue team the defense. Asymmetrical scoring-the blue team scores every time a convoy ship escapes, red team scores by killing convoy ships. Set things up so that it's NOT balanced numbers-by design. the raiding force is outnumbered 3/5 or 6/10, enable Friendly Fire to discourage AOE and random weapons by the defense.

2 part Planetary Assault; Starts with a defending team and an attacking team, Defending team wins the first half, it doesn't go to the second half. First half is space, second is ground. this could be bad for anyone who's totally optimized for space combat and sucks at ground, it favours a balanced build. Slant this to the attacking force, maybe 5/4 or 10/8 odds-after all, the defending forces can cut the match short by succeeding in the first round...

3. Terrain Denial/Terrain conquest: similar to C&H but one side is clearly the attacking side, the other is clearly the defending side. this can be even matchup.

Mechanical changes that might even a few things up:

1.Enable Friendly Fire. That AOE tric minefield can and will kill EVERYTHING around it-including your buddies.
2. "Elite" damage-you either fix the ship, or carry injuries and injury penalties when you res.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 130
# 5
05-23-2013, 05:28 PM
Ive been flying weird sci build since beta. They still exist. They just cost more to get to the pinnacle. They all cost $$ or a lot of time to grind to get to the point here are a few.

Drain.
Plama Dot
Recharge builds
Transphasic bombers
Un-killable zombies
Boarding party
Shield stripper. borderline useful with a lot of p2w console but still on the fence for effectiveness.

Soon to come

Speed scort
Brel/bop cloak snooper bombers
Carrier Elite pets for both sides
perma alpha Bop

Here's my retired tholian weaver alpha stike.

Alpha+Omega + Web + Jump ( to inside the web)TBR3 into wall + transphasic Torpedo spread + cluster+ Iso-charge = dead pre-made team.

cost of build $50 in ship and consoles

People tried to copy but never got its just so crazy but it works so good.

There so much you can do in this game when it come to creative builds. You just have to give it your best when you walk into pvp with funky builds, but you can make a lot of sick builds.

Then you'll here all the QQ for cookie cutter-scort saying your no skilled because you don't have there cookie cutter and being fully disable, killed threw shields, drain, crushed is just so op that its hax and QQ how its stupid sto, but that has always been STo weird crazy builds. The best player in sto are the crazy min-max funky builds the rest are all the noobs flying bugs thinking there all great until they meet a real player.

A great players will find a way to kill you with out ever firing any energy weapons
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller

House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate

Last edited by paradise1killer; 05-23-2013 at 05:52 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,536
# 6
05-23-2013, 05:49 PM
You hear this sort of talk everytime a long time bug gets fixed.

Shock wave torps should have NEVER ever had an interaction with a Doff... no other P2W console skill has its cool down reduced by doffs of any kind. I mean think of it this way... if Gravity Pulse had its cool down reduced by the same doff that reduces the cool down on gravity well, would you not consider that a bug ?

Plasma skills should NEVER ever have had an interaction with a Tactical console.

When a skill does X dmg in is level 1 version... and 2x in its level 2... and then 20x in its level 3.... Um its bugged... you haven't discovered a great "option" you have discovered an unpatched bug.

When these types of long standing bugs get patched there is always people that complain... cause they had found some sort of viable option that was "unique" to them even though in truth its use was fairly wide spread.

There are plenty of anti establishment builds out there.

Do they always work better 100% of time time vs the "standard" builds... well no why should they. In most cases the "standard" builds are what people gravitate to after 1000s and sometimes tens of thousands of hours of testing all the possible combos.

The key is understanding when your niche build is going to out perform those builds... and then try your best to create those situations often enough to make your odd duck build the victor.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 05-23-2013 at 05:53 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 66
# 7
05-23-2013, 06:39 PM
Call it a "bug" if you want, many of these builds that are getting "fixed" were just not that good or problematic (like hull regeneration). We are in fact running out of viable niches, which is the point.

Last edited by philipag; 05-23-2013 at 06:42 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 66
# 8
05-23-2013, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise1killer View Post
Ive been flying weird sci build since beta. They still exist. They just cost more to get to the pinnacle. They all cost $$ or a lot of time to grind to get to the point here are a few.

Drain.
Plama Dot
Recharge builds
Transphasic bombers
Un-killable zombies
Boarding party
Shield stripper. borderline useful with a lot of p2w console but still on the fence for effectiveness.

Soon to come

Speed scort
Brel/bop cloak snooper bombers
Carrier Elite pets for both sides
perma alpha Bop

Here's my retired tholian weaver alpha stike.

Alpha+Omega + Web + Jump ( to inside the web)TBR3 into wall + transphasic Torpedo spread + cluster+ Iso-charge = dead pre-made team.

cost of build $50 in ship and consoles

People tried to copy but never got its just so crazy but it works so good.

There so much you can do in this game when it come to creative builds. You just have to give it your best when you walk into pvp with funky builds, but you can make a lot of sick builds.

Then you'll here all the QQ for cookie cutter-scort saying your no skilled because you don't have there cookie cutter and being fully disable, killed threw shields, drain, crushed is just so op that its hax and QQ how its stupid sto, but that has always been STo weird crazy builds. The best player in sto are the crazy min-max funky builds the rest are all the noobs flying bugs thinking there all great until they meet a real player.

A great players will find a way to kill you with out ever firing any energy weapons
Interesting, I like this creative stuff.

B'rels and/or transphasics could be next on the list however. Like to see more of this kind of thing, not less.

Been playing since pre-launch, and the only thing I ever considered seriously OP (or perhaps OU, over-used) was early Viral Matrix (a few weird occasional bugs aside).

Hull regen, even when maxxed out in every possible way, was just ok.

Last edited by philipag; 05-23-2013 at 07:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,414
# 9
05-23-2013, 07:30 PM
i like to create fun pve builds now.

in my gal-x

faw looks so puuuurtttty
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,536
# 10
05-23-2013, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipag View Post
Call it a "bug" if you want, many of these builds that are getting "fixed" were just not that good or problematic (like hull regeneration). We are in fact running out of viable niches, which is the point.
Well they are bugged that's the point.

The human doff junk wasn't some super secret squirrel power. It was a clearly broken mechanic... one that was added and never tweaked.

After 3 years of the human trait not working at all... when they flipped them on with those sorts of numbers. Pretty much anyone that was any bit familiar with the game. New that they where 100% broken... and most of us knew they would get corrected. Frankly I am a bit annoyed that Cryptic left them in the game in that state for as long as they did.

When I think of unique outside the box builds I don't go and find something that is broken and then rachet it up to 10 thinking I have done something inventive. I would simply be goosing a broken mechanic... some people would call it exploiting. I won't go that far however... some of the things I listed and even the human boffs do indeed however fit the traditional definition of exploiting.

What annoys me most about this game in that regard... is that Cryptic in most cases will allow things like that to stay in the game patch after patch. I know they are getting reported cause often I am one of the ones reporting them. Frankly Cryptic has to get A LOT more pro active about squashing exploitable bugs. Had the Human doffs gotten toned down within 1-2 patchs of being flipped on... there would likely be very little QQ about it. Ditto for things like the shockwave doff interaction, or the Shockwave 3 controversy, or the interaction of plasma infusers. If we go way back there was things like Tac captain abilities affecting defensive numbers. Some of that stuff was in the game for a year and more... so its understandable that some people would come to see them as working as intended. I mean if I bug report something in a very detailed way and a year later its still in game would i be wrong in assuming its a legit game mechanic.

So far I think everything that was fixed was fixed as it should have been. What annoys me is that these things lingering for as long as they do... of course you have to expect for people to build around them and get a little attached to them. Don't get me wrong I am not saying anyone using them was exploiting... how can they be accused of that when Cryptic leaves these things in game for in some cases 50+ patches. They would save themselves a lot of QQ over this type of junk if they would get much better at fixing in a timely manner exploitable bugs and mechanic breakdowns.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
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