Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,988
# 11
05-03-2013, 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by srspells View Post
actually to be fair there isn't that much of a difference between 4 and 5 tac consoles with all purple mk 12 gear, the main issue is people often dont think that is a small percentage, yes its there but not adds so much a mk 11 guy with mk 11 consoles cant beat a mk 12 guy with all mk 12 consoles.
-Spells
Some folks need numbers, let's throw numbers at them!

4x Tac vs. 5x Tac w/ a Mk XII Ultra Rare DHC [Dmg]x2, eh? We'll even toss in some abilities and other stuff! We'll give the guy 9 Weapons/9 Energy Weapons.

***Please Note - the following was made possible from various discussions with Bareel in several threads. Some of the numbers are from previous examples I've done. I'm not showing the math, suffice to say if you're trying to add percentages - it doesn't work that way. The threads are out there explaining how it's done.***

First w/ 4x +30% Consoles...

Base DPV for DHC: 174
+ 9 Weapon Training: 260.913
+ 9 Energy Weapons: 347.826
+ Mk XII: 556.626
+ Ultra Rare: 574.026
+ [Dmg]x2: 591.426
+ 4x +30% Consoles: 800.226
@ 125 Weapon Power: 2000.565
+ APA3 (+47.1%): 2942.831115
+ APO1 (+14.2%): 3226.911345
+ GDF3 (+24.9%): 3725.05203
+ TF2 (+30.0%): 4325.22153
* EPtW1 (+10%): 4757.743683

So, we can round that to 4757.7 DPV or 3171.8 DPS.

Now w/ 5x +30% Consoles...

Base DPV for DHC: 174
+ 9 Weapon Training: 260.913
+ 9 Energy Weapons: 347.826
+ Mk XII: 556.626
+ Ultra Rare: 574.026
+ [Dmg]x2: 591.426
+ 4x +30% Consoles: 852.426
@ 125 Weapon Power: 2131.065
+ APA3 (+47.1%): 3134.796615
+ APO1 (+14.2%): 3437.407845
+ GDF3 (+24.9%): 3968.04303
+ TF2 (+30.0%): 4607.36253
* EPtW1 (+10%): 5068.098783

So, we can round that to 5068.1 DPV or 3378.7 DPS.

That 5th +30% Tac Console took us from:
DPV...4757.7 to 5068.1 (+6.5% DPV)
DPS...3171.8 to 3378.7 (+6.5% DPS)

Yep, that 5th +30% Tac Console added +6.5% Damage...not +30% Damage.

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 12
05-03-2013, 03:32 AM
Wish there would be some online calculator for that.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,988
# 13
05-03-2013, 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Wish there would be some online calculator for that.
Somebody could probably code one in Java easily enough - Heck, even set up a Google docs spreadsheet sort of thing. Heh, as is I've got to hunt down the posts for it to make sure the order is right, grab the calculator, and go through line by line. It's a PITA.

I wish I knew how it worked for Torps - what the bases/etc were - if the various modifiers were the same, etc, etc, etc. Never came up in the threads I'd been dealing with - they were always about DHCs vs. Beams...meh.

It would be awesome if we could see some more of the other numbers out there - get all the formulas together, and it could maybe be something added to the STOacademy site, eh?

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 10
# 14
05-03-2013, 03:44 AM
what is the damage differance for the comeing out of stealth bonus for mogai's cloak? how much of a differance does the small duration bonus make?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 308
# 15
05-03-2013, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Some folks need numbers, let's throw numbers at them!

4x Tac vs. 5x Tac w/ a Mk XII Ultra Rare DHC [Dmg]x2, eh? We'll even toss in some abilities and other stuff! We'll give the guy 9 Weapons/9 Energy Weapons.

***Please Note - the following was made possible from various discussions with Bareel in several threads. Some of the numbers are from previous examples I've done. I'm not showing the math, suffice to say if you're trying to add percentages - it doesn't work that way. The threads are out there explaining how it's done.***

First w/ 4x +30% Consoles...

Base DPV for DHC: 174
+ 9 Weapon Training: 260.913
+ 9 Energy Weapons: 347.826
+ Mk XII: 556.626
+ Ultra Rare: 574.026
+ [Dmg]x2: 591.426
+ 4x +30% Consoles: 800.226
@ 125 Weapon Power: 2000.565
+ APA3 (+47.1%): 2942.831115
+ APO1 (+14.2%): 3226.911345
+ GDF3 (+24.9%): 3725.05203
+ TF2 (+30.0%): 4325.22153
* EPtW1 (+10%): 4757.743683

So, we can round that to 4757.7 DPV or 3171.8 DPS.

Now w/ 5x +30% Consoles...

Base DPV for DHC: 174
+ 9 Weapon Training: 260.913
+ 9 Energy Weapons: 347.826
+ Mk XII: 556.626
+ Ultra Rare: 574.026
+ [Dmg]x2: 591.426
+ 4x +30% Consoles: 852.426
@ 125 Weapon Power: 2131.065
+ APA3 (+47.1%): 3134.796615
+ APO1 (+14.2%): 3437.407845
+ GDF3 (+24.9%): 3968.04303
+ TF2 (+30.0%): 4607.36253
* EPtW1 (+10%): 5068.098783

So, we can round that to 5068.1 DPV or 3378.7 DPS.

That 5th +30% Tac Console took us from:
DPV...4757.7 to 5068.1 (+6.5% DPV)
DPS...3171.8 to 3378.7 (+6.5% DPS)

Yep, that 5th +30% Tac Console added +6.5% Damage...not +30% Damage.
srry didnt feel like typing it all but tbh most know there is plenty of charts out there explaining the same thing.
-Spells

|| Open Door Policy ||
| Dues Ex Mechina |
Fleet Leader

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,988
# 16
05-03-2013, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by srspells View Post
srry didnt feel like typing it all but tbh most know there is plenty of charts out there explaining the same thing.
-Spells
Heh, wasn't suggesting that you do it or should have done it. I was just having a...moment. Ticked off about the state of Romulan Aliens...not sure why they added them with the Traits the way they are. Was just trying to be silly with all the exclamations to get my mind off it.

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 308
# 17
05-03-2013, 04:42 AM
ty for posting though it does help.
-Spells

|| Open Door Policy ||
| Dues Ex Mechina |
Fleet Leader

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 18
05-03-2013, 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Somebody could probably code one in Java easily enough - Heck, even set up a Google docs spreadsheet sort of thing. Heh, as is I've got to hunt down the posts for it to make sure the order is right, grab the calculator, and go through line by line. It's a PITA.

I wish I knew how it worked for Torps - what the bases/etc were - if the various modifiers were the same, etc, etc, etc. Never came up in the threads I'd been dealing with - they were always about DHCs vs. Beams...meh.

It would be awesome if we could see some more of the other numbers out there - get all the formulas together, and it could maybe be something added to the STOacademy site, eh?
You could make one with your knowledge...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 826
# 19
05-03-2013, 05:27 AM
So maybe I'm a bit wrong here, but you haven't played the ships, left out some stuff, and already calling that a ship, that you haven't played, and very few have played in PvP (if any) is OP.

First off, you're missing the energy differencials. Mogai is going back to a 40. Who knows what the T'varo is going to end up at. The singularity powers new charge concept, no one knows how its going to add up.

No where have I seen a comparison in your numbers between the new warp engines and the new Singularity engines. Do you know if there is a difference at high ends, and if so what are they?

Now what are the differences in traits, with the new trait system?

I'm not saying your wrong, but you're math is missing a ton of variables, that need to be worked out, most likely in game, and not as a arm chair captain.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 183
# 20
05-03-2013, 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Yep, that 5th +30% Tac Console added +6.5% Damage...not +30% Damage.

No one here, at least not I, has ever argued otherwise. Consoles add a percentage to the BASE weapon damage. The more other consoles and skills etc. that add to this base damage, the less of an overal dps impact each of them will have. That said, I think your calculations are a bit over-optimistic, in that you seem to be taking into account buffs that aren't always on. No matter, my own back of the envelope calculations give me about a 7.1% increase in DPS from going from 4 to 5 tact consoles. Not that different from 6.5%, so we can say we agree here.

Where we part ways is where you seem to imply that this 6.5% is not significant. People obsess over much less in this game. As an example: the dps loss from going from 5 to 4 MK XII Very Rare tact consoles is less than the loss you take from going from 5 Very Rare MK XII to 5 COMMON MK XII. Go ahead. Do the calculations for a a 5 console ship with common quality consoles. You'll see that pulls ever so slightly ahead of the 4 console ship.

Are you people also suggesting that we "don't need" Very Rare gear? Perhaps we should all be content with common gear? We can even give a monetary value to this DPS loss: multiply the cost of 5 very rare consoles, and substract the cost of 5 common ones. That's how much your DPS loss costs according to the STO community.

PS: You can argue that the loss from going from 5 to 4 tact consoles is, in a part, offset by gaining an extra science one. But that's a *different* argument; and one I'll address elsewhere. I just want to make sure we don't fall for this "it's an insignificant gain" claptrap.

PS PS This is for the Mogai! For the Dehlan the DPS loss is a lot worse!! But everyone on this thread seems to be concentrating on the Mogai. Is that because everyone agrees that there IS an issue with the Dehlan and the T'varo?
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