Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 355
# 31
05-08-2013, 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshalericdavid View Post
Great way to kill public Elite STF matches especially ground ones that already take a wile to get started.
If public ESTF matches are only "alive" on the back of leeches and idiots who have learned nothing but to game the system, GOOD. Cryptic's free to ratchet up the rewards to incentivize ESTF play for those who have the know-how, normalize STF rewards to be an actual step into ESTF play, and leave normal STF's for the majority who just seek to maximize individual reward for minimal effort and risk.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 32
05-08-2013, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theodrim View Post
If public ESTF matches are only "alive" on the back of leeches and idiots who have learned nothing but to game the system, GOOD. Cryptic's free to ratchet up the rewards to incentivize ESTF play for those who have the know-how, normalize STF rewards to be an actual step into ESTF play, and leave normal STF's for the majority who just seek to maximize individual reward for minimal effort and risk.
I would rather have a idiot join a Elite STF and the optional fail then to have the entire mission fail thus making people play public Elite STF less.

Something else needs to be done about Leeches then to punish everyone else in such a situation. The game already records how much damage people do in missions so if someone goes a long period of time not doing any damage to enemies then they are considered a leech by the game and get no rewards from the mission. Something like that would be much better.

They can do whatever they want but that does not mean it would be a good thing to do. Killing public games that could punish a entire team just because they don't have enough DPS to get a optional is a horrible idea and one of the worst if not worst idea I have seen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 104
# 33
05-08-2013, 03:56 PM
I did not read all the posts and maybe you already replied this question but is there a possibility via this thread to set a team and complete into the hive with optional.has anyone finished this ground stf? I have all ground optionals but this.ive been lonking for a good team to dig it but seems noone even try it.asking on zone didnt help me.anyone willing to help me out?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,282
# 34
05-08-2013, 04:12 PM
I do agree with those who say "Elite" missions should be just that rather than the normal missions with harder hitting bigger damage sponges.

Endgame content should be endgame content and it should have NPCs that put up a fight, not ones that sit and sponge damage while occasionally throwing out 1 shots
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 355
# 35
05-08-2013, 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshalericdavid View Post
They can do whatever they want but that does not mean it would be a good thing to do. Killing public games that could punish a entire team just because they don't have enough DPS to get a optional is a horrible idea and one of the worst if not worst idea I have seen.
That's a load of unadulterated bull and you know it. The DPS requirement for ESTF optionals as they are is utterly trivial. I've been in ESTF's that were completed with ample time to spare on the optionals when team damage didn't even break 20K DPS. All one needs is to have a coherent, appropriately-leveled, weapon/boff layout, and working knowledge of the content and its encounters. You only "need" 8K+ DPS layouts to carry people who shouldn't be in ESTF's anyways.

People, I'll add, who are generally in ESTF's only because they can be carried and earn the maximum number of marks possible for minimal effort. Ratchet up the cost-benefit ratio for these people, and they will migrate to normal STF's. Their goal is to collect marks with minimal effort, and were ESTF's (ISE in particular) to cease being the path of least resistance, they would stop running them leaving those queues to players who are there for challenge and earned increased reward.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 36
05-09-2013, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theodrim View Post
That's a load of unadulterated bull and you know it. The DPS requirement for ESTF optionals as they are is utterly trivial. I've been in ESTF's that were completed with ample time to spare on the optionals when team damage didn't even break 20K DPS. All one needs is to have a coherent, appropriately-leveled, weapon/boff layout, and working knowledge of the content and its encounters. You only "need" 8K+ DPS layouts to carry people who shouldn't be in ESTF's anyways.

People, I'll add, who are generally in ESTF's only because they can be carried and earn the maximum number of marks possible for minimal effort. Ratchet up the cost-benefit ratio for these people, and they will migrate to normal STF's. Their goal is to collect marks with minimal effort, and were ESTF's (ISE in particular) to cease being the path of least resistance, they would stop running them leaving those queues to players who are there for challenge and earned increased reward.
I have been in games in Khitomer Vortex (Elite) that had 4 Cruisers that had been built for tanking and support and having the optional fail because not enough DPS from them. This game has the possibility to have even 5 people who fly tanking and support Cruisers in a mission and such a group would be punished.

Failing a optional objective should not cause missions to fail. I do not support it and I never will. It is just a really bad idea.

Yes their are people who enter Elite missions and need to be carried. I would rather have it be the way it is then to do as you suggest and I am sure most people who play the game would as well.

I don't want to be forced into trying to play private games with people just so I know the missions can be completed. I have no real life friends or family that plays the game. People from the same fleet are not always on the same time as me. I don't want a hassle just to get games started.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,282
# 37
05-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshalericdavid View Post
I don't want a hassle just to get games started.
Ever heard of ESTF channels?
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 355
# 38
05-09-2013, 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshalericdavid View Post
I have been in games in Khitomer Vortex (Elite) that had 4 Cruisers that had been built for tanking and support and having the optional fail because not enough DPS from them. This game has the possibility to have even 5 people who fly tanking and support Cruisers in a mission and such a group would be punished.
I reliably pull 3K+ DPS in my mirror star cruiser that's set up for defense and support, and that's enough to see an ESTF through with optional, provided the rest of my team knows what they're doing and is decently set up. That's in Mk XI greens and blues, and no sets, with squat worth mentioning in the way of consoles -- by all rights, undergeared for ESTF's. Actual DPS requirements of ESTF's are that forgiving, and are only artificially inflated on the backs of leeches and people who have no right being in ESTF's in the first place. Your fellow players probably fell into that category, either from lack of coherent gear and/or knowledge.

The problem as things are, is players ding 50 and, seeing the ridiculous grinds and mark/dilithium costs involved with gearing up, jump immediately into ESTF's expecting to be carried and getting the maximum number of marks with a minimum of time and effort. Running normal STF's has a much lower cost-to-benefit ratio and to take time learning the instances is a "waste" of marks. Players can have a ten-minute picture-perfect normal STF run, that still pays off fourfold worse than a complete C.F. of an ESTF run, and that's the best-case scenario.

That's the problem, and addressing that is the key to making ESTF experiences better for all players involved. "As I suggest" would see players who want to play ESTF's, able to gear up for ESTF's in a reasonable time span through normal STF's, and thereby learn the instances and how to better equip their ships. That, in turn, means they wouldn't have to be carried.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 39
05-09-2013, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Ever heard of ESTF channels?
Yes I have seen people talk about it in the forum. It would still be a hassle talking to people trying to get a team going for each and every mission that I would like to do when I want to do it. I don't want to do that. I want to be able to quickly and easily get missions going as does most people that is why public matches are most common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodrim View Post
I reliably pull 3K+ DPS in my mirror star cruiser that's set up for defense and support, and that's enough to see an ESTF through with optional, provided the rest of my team knows what they're doing and is decently set up. That's in Mk XI greens and blues, and no sets, with squat worth mentioning in the way of consoles -- by all rights, undergeared for ESTF's. Actual DPS requirements of ESTF's are that forgiving, and are only artificially inflated on the backs of leeches and people who have no right being in ESTF's in the first place. Your fellow players probably fell into that category, either from lack of coherent gear and/or knowledge.

The problem as things are, is players ding 50 and, seeing the ridiculous grinds and mark/dilithium costs involved with gearing up, jump immediately into ESTF's expecting to be carried and getting the maximum number of marks with a minimum of time and effort. Running normal STF's has a much lower cost-to-benefit ratio and to take time learning the instances is a "waste" of marks. Players can have a ten-minute picture-perfect normal STF run, that still pays off fourfold worse than a complete C.F. of an ESTF run, and that's the best-case scenario.

That's the problem, and addressing that is the key to making ESTF experiences better for all players involved. "As I suggest" would see players who want to play ESTF's, able to gear up for ESTF's in a reasonable time span through normal STF's, and thereby learn the instances and how to better equip their ships. That, in turn, means they wouldn't have to be carried.
The teams I have been in with failed optional your probably right they all probably had crappy gear but if such type of people could not complete Elite missions if optional fail they would be forced into painful grinding normal missions to get better gear making it harder for me and so many other people to get Elite games started. Look at ground mission how long they take to get started compared to space missions. They usually take twice as long if not more because they are more difficult and I know if all Elite missions are made harder they all would take longer to start I do not want that to happen.

Yes I know people would like to be carried some and would jump into Elite missions once they reach level 50. Rewards do play the biggest part but so does other things like having fun. Elite missions are usually always more fun even if optional fail.

Yes making them better for all but having a failed optional = mission failure is not the answer. So many things wrong with it. Someone who is new and enters a Elite mission and does something that causes the fail would be bad for everyone else. Another thing is someone could be a jerk and make optional fail on purpose their are people who do that now imagine how much worse things could get if it caused mission failures. Lot of immature jerks out their.

Make it that if you complete all space STF missions on normal you get the full Mk X Borg set and if you complete all ground normal STF missions you get a full Mk X Omega reputation set of your choice and even maybe a Mk X melee weapon. Make it be know in game to all people that is rewards for normal STF missions all being completed.

That would help to reduce the amount of people jumping into Elite missions and doing STF missions for the first time and with much better gear then ordinary crappy Mk IX or X whites or greens.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 355
# 40
05-10-2013, 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshalericdavid View Post
Yes I know people would like to be carried some and would jump into Elite missions once they reach level 50. Rewards do play the biggest part but so does other things like having fun. Elite missions are usually always more fun even if optional fail.
"Would" like to be carried and "would" jump into elite missions as soon as they dig 50? Players do, because it's the way to maximize benefit and minimize cost. It's like what I discussed with you in the "worst STF" thread -- players are inherently rational actors, even if they aren't acutely aware of it. They will inherently seek the path of least resistance for the greatest reward. Right now, ESTF's are the path of least resistance for the greatest reward -- the difficulty increase isn't remotely proportional to the reward increase. Fix that, and players disinterested in challenge will gravitate towards the path of least resistance: normal STF's.

Right now, at least to me, ESTF's aren't fun. It's a crap shoot as to with whom you'll group, when as the endgame/"elite" content there ought to be a reasonable expectation to actually know how to play. You "have" to grossly overbuild/overgear your ship, because the expectation is somehow on competent players to carry instead of the community as a whole to have idea freakin' one how to play at the endgame. It's stressful, because the impetus isn't on me to take on 20% of a team effort for 20% of team rewards; the impetus is on me to do more while others free ride, for the exact same share of reward. That's BS, and that is what makes me personally not want to play at least public ESTF's; not any challenge or presumption thereof, since the damn things can be run in Mk XI greens and blues (forget about any number of eminently available Mk XI purples and sets that require trivial effort to acquire, that apparently a good number of ESTF free riders can't even be arsed to get themselves).

Screw that, I want an ESTF environment that provides ample rewards, but players must know what they're doing and must have put forth the trivial amount of effort it takes to gear up for them. In other words, I want the free riders out -- let them play normal STF's if they want an effort-free Omega mark gravy train. I actually love the difficulty curve of ESTF's as they are now -- anyone, so long as they know what they're doing and have even a mediocre ship build, can jump into an ESTF and do their part. I'm totally fine with that, but for that free riding in ESTF's is all the more outrageous since it takes effort and ignorance (willful or no) well beyond the call of duty to actually free ride in one. And as I've said a half-dozen times now, that's the core problem with endgame play right now.

Quote:
...Another thing is someone could be a jerk and make optional fail on purpose their are people who do that now imagine how much worse things could get if it caused mission failures. Lot of immature jerks out their.
And, it would be on Cryptic/PWE's head to punish griefers -- as it already is. Call out Cryptic/PWE for failing to actually enforce anti-griefing rules.

Quote:
Make it that if you complete all space STF missions on normal you get the full Mk X Borg set and if you complete all ground normal STF missions you get a full Mk X Omega reputation set of your choice and even maybe a Mk X melee weapon. Make it be know in game to all people that is rewards for normal STF missions all being completed.

That would help to reduce the amount of people jumping into Elite missions and doing STF missions for the first time and with much better gear then ordinary crappy Mk IX or X whites or greens.
My original post about this, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodrim View Post
...In exchange, make the Mark X ground sets cost 100 Omega marks and the Mark XI space sets cost 250 (retain other costs) so they're accessible in a reasonable amount of time with normal STF's; and increase the ESTF rewards (increase the BNP yield 6-11 BNP's, or have them give 2880 Dilithium ore instead of 960).
In other words, I've already discussed this. You just failed to notice it, or never responded.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.

Last edited by theodrim; 05-10-2013 at 08:19 AM.
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