Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,473
# 31
05-10-2013, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkkindness2 View Post
You know, I had a problem with the original thread that lead to this one but didn't post there because I just couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. Now I know.

This smacks of the worst sort of arrogance. Who are you to think that you have all of the answers for all of the thousands of Fleets in STO? All of the guilds, fellowships, or what-have-you in all of the other games? People are free to create Fleets to use as personal banks, Fleets to run up the ranks to sell provision-purchasable goods, and are free to sell Fleets that they're not interested in maintaining any more. If someone's account gets hacked and they sell the Fleet that they're the leader of, that's an issue of account security, not the Fleet system. If someone sells a Fleet over their members' protests, well, maybe the prospective members should've vetted the Fleet that they intended to join a bit better. Big Brother restrictions and lengthy charters are not necessary, warranted, or wanted.

On a side note, I doubt that you've ever played EVE. You'd hate it over there.
While the start of this post is correct, in that it is arrogant to think that these rules of conduct should apply to all fleets, it's equally arrogant to assume that the rules do not have any merit at all.

Yeah, there are certain rules which do not make sense to me. Yeah, there are rules that I would not follow or push to be instated in my fleet, because they are of a different focus. Yeah, there are issues with these rules being the basis of every fleet in the game. But ask yourself this. Do you have the right to waltz in here and denounce the entirety of the rules simply because You do not agree with them?

While I don't agree with the majority of these rules, and will not implement them in my fleet, I will at least give the original post (er, rather, the second post) some credit for attempting to cover many, many different types of fleets. It is certainly not a finished product by far, but I do commend the effort to at least suggest some ground rules for fleets to use, in keeping its members from creating conflict and detracting from this game that we all love so much.

To xtern1ty: Something to add perhaps: I feel a fifth section should be included, as a *suggested* list of consequences for breaching a previously mentioned article/section.

stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
My Useful List of STO Forum Threads, Ship Builds & More!
It's about time. DEVS NEED ACCOUNTABILITY.

Last edited by stardestroyer001; 05-10-2013 at 02:12 PM.
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,687
# 32
05-10-2013, 02:08 PM
Speaking as a Mod, I think the hostility in this thread is unwarranted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Having discussed at length detrimental fleet practices that undermine player confidence in fleets on my thread Fleet recruitment, I feel it only right I should follow up with beneficial practices that help keep the community system we have strong and stable for ourselves & future players to enjoy. The following Articles are compiled from my many experiences in leadership in this and other MMO's throughout the years. I've designed them as common sense principles which benefit any individual fleet, large or small, and the community system as a whole, should a fleet choose to implement them. Feel free to copy and utilize them for your fleet's benefit and/or share your own sound rules of thumb that may be added to the Code. If you are a leader or fleet who finds these principles worthy of use, please let us hear about it in reply to this thread; along with any comments, opinions, or suggestions you may have.

I didn't read anywhere in that paragraph where the OP is demanding or even suggesting that this should be mandatory and somehow enforced by Cryptic.

This is his opinion about good fleet/guild policy, which other fleets are free to adopt or reject as they see fit. Feel free to agree or disagree. But nobody is free to flame him for it. Expect some moderation.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,687
# 33
05-10-2013, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetanine View Post
you realize you can edit your own posts right? why do you need all of those extra reserved slots?
To tell you the truth, I think that many reserved posts are a bit excessive myself. A literal reading of the spamming rules might classify them as such.

Individual posts can be quite long and can be added to as necessary.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 34
05-10-2013, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
No. I understand where misunderstanding is bound to develop here. I had originally placed this on the STO Discussion section, same as my last post, but it was moved here. I had it in STO discussion because this thread refers to any fleet in general no matter what faction. If possible I request it be moved back.

One look at my profile pic should tell you I've a KDF main and alt, as well as matching feds. The Code idea I've placed forward was suggested by a moderator for establishment by Cryptic themselves. I've opened the topic for us to do it OURSELVES. Responsible behavior for OUR own benefit. The benefits that fleets gain by reaching a common consensus for engaging cooperatively and not just competitively with each other far outweighs the risks, not to mention the benefit it would do to the game in terms of reputation and survivability; but I don't expect many will understand that. No one said this battle is going to be easy, but I am committed to it and will talk to Brandon about it next time I see him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Speaking as a Mod, I think the hostility in this thread is unwarranted.

I didn't read anywhere in that paragraph where the OP is demanding or even suggesting that this should be mandatory and somehow enforced by Cryptic.
It's all about tone and construction. That's what's throwing people off. Even though he's stated that this thread is for discussion, the manner of how it's presented is poor. The bits highlighted in bold are what people are going to pick up on and grab their pitchforks over, whether they have a founded reason or not.

Even though the poster state's this thread is for discussion, it appears he wants this fully implemented regardless of feedback. Does that happen to make any sense?
KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 258
# 35
05-10-2013, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardestroyer001 View Post
While the start of this post is correct, in that it is arrogant to think that these rules of conduct should apply to all fleets, it's equally arrogant to assume that the rules do not have any merit at all.

Yeah, there are certain rules which do not make sense to me. Yeah, there are rules that I would not follow or push to be instated in my fleet, because they are of a different focus. Yeah, there are issues with these rules being the basis of every fleet in the game. But ask yourself this. Do you have the right to waltz in here and denounce the entirety of the rules simply because You do not agree with them?
I apologize if my tone comes across as overly harsh here, and I can see how that might be the case if this thread is taken in isolation. However, this thread combined with the OP's other thread on the topic (the one that is linked to in the original post, no less), creates a tone in which the OP is completely dismissing a wide variety of perfectly viable and permissible forms of gameplay. A small excerpt from that post (which I feel comfortable cross-posting, since it's linked in the original post of this thread, please moderate if necessary):

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
A as in you'll Answer for the evil you do- Practices that involve selling and buying fleets undermine the basic idea of the STO Fleet system, which is to bring players together for team game enjoyment, which in turn helps the game by keeping players interested and playing.

B as in Buying isn't Building- Players selling and buying fleets are engaged in profiteering. Players with the nerve to endure fleet building for the longterm prefer to start from scratch as opposed to buying their way in. I have seen such players turn down offers to buy and are still building today, while others have abandoned. They don't do it to gain ec, but to build a community.
This OP is actively calling creating and advancing a Fleet with the express purpose of selling it or goods that it has access to evil. That, to me, is an arrogant and categorical dismissal of an entire swath of players, as well as the largely free market capitalist economy that's present in STO. The fact that this thread is linked to that one makes it sound, again, to me, more like an edict designed to stamp out this perceived evil than friendly advice on the part of the OP to the greater community, and I have a pretty strong averse reaction to that sort of crusading, personally.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.

In regard to hating Star Trek 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kain9prime View Post
IDIC fail.
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,687
# 36
05-10-2013, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkkindness2 View Post
A small excerpt from that post (which I feel comfortable cross-posting, since it's linked in the original post of this thread, please moderate if necessary):
I recall seeing it. And with all due respect to the OP, I pretty much ignored it.

If you have a comment about that post, please do it -politely- in the other thread where it's at. Despite the link back to the other thread, this is its' own topic and stands or falls on its' own.

As far as the OP's tone goes, well, maybe he's just not coming across well. Sometimes I get a bit too wordy and formal myself.

I'm definitely guilty of falling in love with my own intellectual prose occasionally

(Not saying that's what the OP is doing, that's all me...)
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 258
# 37
05-10-2013, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitzh View Post
It's all about tone and construction. That's what's throwing people off. Even though he's stated that this thread is for discussion, the manner of how it's presented is poor. The bits highlighted in bold are what people are going to pick up on and grab their pitchforks over, whether they have a founded reason or not.

Even though the poster state's this thread is for discussion, it appears he wants this fully implemented regardless of feedback. Does that happen to make any sense?
Vitzh also raises a valid point with this; while the original post in this thread and the suggested charter would otherwise have been something that I would've passed over, the original poster linked to his much more... assertive... thread on the issue in the original post, and made statements in his later post that lend the feeling that this isn't just a friendly suggestion, but something that should be forced on all players and enforced by Cryptic. Something else that Vitzh doesn't mention about the post he quoted is the statement after the first bolded sentence, which implies that if we aren't willing to police this 'inappropriate' behavior ourselves, with the OP's guidance, then Cryptic will do it for us. It definitely lends an air of 'my way, or ELSE!' to the friendly suggestions being made here.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.

In regard to hating Star Trek 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kain9prime View Post
IDIC fail.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 145
# 38
05-10-2013, 05:50 PM
Everybody's getting worked up about something that in my opinion is half baked at best and will never be implemented. What the OP did wrong was to imply that he knows better than the rest of us , if he did know better than us he wouldn't have posted a thread that has gotten him mostly hate. In my opinion someone with 3 months experience in this game shouldn't be telling the rest of us how to play it.

Ive been playing MMO's since Ultima I've ran countless Guilds I have plenty of experience in "Leadership" but I wouldn't dream of posting anything that comes across as arrogant as the OP (even if it isnt intended to be arrogant it appears that way). A code of conduct like that is for work not for a computer game.

Note to OP I have my own fleet its rather big and runs smoothly without a code of conduct. I have also been playing STO and CO for over two years now. I have found the best way to gain respect from other players in these games comes down to one very simple rule. Don't be a bossy boots.


CAPTAIN! I'm picking up a Golden Age Supervillian on long range sensors. She appears to be mooning us U_U"

Last edited by nepht; 05-10-2013 at 06:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 545
# 39
05-10-2013, 10:03 PM
Wow, I left trollers for in-game and come back to find flamers. Allright...
You gotta ask yerselves one question: Do ya feel lucky. Well, do ya?
...loads up Quantum Pepperation-H Torpedo Launcher [Cools on Contact]x3

Though the level of animosity is unexpected, it may have served the purpose uniting the community as intended, with some very intriguing comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitzh
...your tone stinks xtern1ty. That is your main problem. The way everything worded is like a statement of fact as if this should be the final law. It comes across as sheer blatant arrogance. If you had said something like this on EvE someone would have your cold frozen corpse as a trophy by now.
Hm, knew I smelled something, just didn't know what direction it was coming from. Though some things said on this thread from yourself and others would make one with less experience than myself want to walk into a freezer and become a cold frozen corpse as perhaps many of you would prefer; I would rather be hated for attempting to do something good for the community, than liked for being a smily but spoiled brat. (I didn't say you are now, don't assume.) I don't share your animosity and therefore welcome your criticism, as it displays an underlying sentiment of care for the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek
This is his opinion about good fleet/guild policy, which other fleets are free to adopt or reject as they see fit. Feel free to agree or disagree.
Thank you Bluegeek, I couldn't have said it better myself. Fact is the Code is a template for others to adapt, change, disregard or offer suggestions to any way they believe works best. Nowhere am I ordering anyone what to do or saying anyone will be. That they presume otherwise speaks volumes about human nature's readiness to perceive what it can antagonize, rather than befriend, when it does not suit the individual purpose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stardestroyer001
While the start of this post is correct, in that it is arrogant to think that these rules of conduct should apply to all fleets, it's equally arrogant to assume that the rules do not have any merit at all.

To xtern1ty: Something to add perhaps: I feel a fifth section should be included, as a *suggested* list of consequences for breaching a previously mentioned article/section.
I understand why many consider the tone of the Code to be arrogant and absolute. But that's because you're reading it in the wrong context. I wrote the Code from the first person character of a leader, since it is leaders usually in charge of such matters and who I thought it would mostly be relevant to. Though some fleets are happy without any rules, many more have them. Rules are made to be absolute because they are made by those in charge. Contrary to what some of you presume, I've been in game much longer than 3 months and have seen fleet terms that seem equally as arrogant when viewed by an outsider. I've also heard a few leaders in-game boast they rule their fleet with absolute authority, to the fleet's benefit. Benevolent as that may be, absolute authority = dictatorship = arrogance. If arrogance is what you're looking for, you're looking in the wrong place.

If you want more sections or modify existing ones, feel free to suggest specific additions so everyone can calmly discuss. Not all fleet leaders are closed to common ideas, despite the prevailing views in this thread. Some of the best are the ones who keep quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nepht
What the OP did wrong was to imply that s-he knows better than the rest of us:

Ive been playing MMO's since Ultima I've ran countless Guilds I have plenty of experience in "Leadership"...
Note to OP I have my own fleet its rather big and runs smoothly without a code of conduct. I have also been playing STO and CO for over two years now.
Works both ways honeybuns...
This is what I've really done: I opened a thread to bring together fleets and leaders to discuss basic fleet principles shared in common, promoting the spirit of community cooperation. Indeed, by coming together to voice your criticism of me, you have yourselves proven that the fleet community can find consensus together. All you have to do now is turn that knowledge to your benefit and open up dialog with each other. That shouldn't be too hard considering the caring, fun loving, thrill seeking captains you are.

Say, all this work has given me a terrible thirst... Quark, drinks on the house. Set warp to the community get-together party. Engage!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 145
# 40
05-10-2013, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post

Works both ways honeybuns... <-----little bit sexist kiddo .
This is what I've really done: I opened a thread to bring together fleets and leaders to discuss basic fleet principles shared in common, promoting the spirit of community cooperation. Indeed, by coming together to voice your criticism of me, you have yourselves proven that the fleet community can find consensus together. All you have to do now is turn that knowledge to your benefit and open up dialog with each other. That shouldn't be too hard considering the caring, fun loving, thrill seeking captains you are.

Say, all this work has given me a terrible thirst... Quark, drinks on the house. Set warp to the community get-together party. Engage!
Look you seem like a nice enough chap. A little bossy ( a LOT bossy ). But hearts in the right place. The real issue is we already know how to run our fleets, and SHOCK HORROR most of us do seem to get along

I highly doubt you will get many fleets signing up to this but hey good luck anyway ^__^


CAPTAIN! I'm picking up a Golden Age Supervillian on long range sensors. She appears to be mooning us U_U"

Last edited by nepht; 05-10-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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