Republic Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 59
# 121
05-13-2013, 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.

There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.

There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
This. The road to 2409 spelled out a pretty unstable empire; Who, by the way, were getting significant support from the federation already. Empress Sela had already starting using Tal Shiar tactics to get what she wanted well before being banished to the Delta quadrant. The RSE military, which had become the defacto ruling body after the destruction of Romulus was stretched thin and subsequently either decimated by their war with the KDf, or by the Tal Shiar's clamor for power. Which, one would imagine would start with the assimilation of what's left of the military.

This makes the Tal Shiar the military, with Empress Sela leading them as she tries to turn the Empire into what she wants.
Mean while, the Romulan people have been running or fighting with the countless grabs for power by people and factions wanting to make their own Romulan Empire, all to serve their own needs, and not caring that the empire was struggling just to survive on the worlds that they were making.

many Romulans are trying to avoid the Empire, as it's Sela's empire and not even a shadow of what they used to belong to.

But Lets say that you guys did get what you wanted, not alliances, back stabbing and subterfuge at all angles. what's take a look at what such a faction would look like.

The Not quite Tal Shiar Romulan Empire.

1) character creation: You would get to create a character of any type of Romulan. You wouldn't be able to create Remans, because they would be a slave race, or never allowed near the helm of a war bird. Nor would you have borg liberated Romulans or Alien gen, which already is causing such a frenzy as those are locked off to many players to begin with so that their is a more Romulan faction. (unlike the KDF Orion empire the Klingons have.) If they did allow playable Remans, (something many want.) They would have to be their own faction as well.

The outfits would also be limiting, as many would be variations of uniforms, much like the KDF and Feds, instead of what we have now, which is a nice mix, with options to get those iconic uniforms we like from the shows.

2) Story: I'm going to be very generous here, trying to extrapolate what would likely be the best story with the idea of Pre-nemesis Romulan military. You would start out as a lowly whatever (Not even lieutenant yet.) in command of a very insignificant vessel. We'll assume for the sake of argument that you get the old TOS era warbird because resources are scarce on the flotilla. You have to prove that you are capable to be of use for the Empire, whose goal is to over throw the Tal Shiar and reclaim Rator III so that you can re-establish the Empire's old glory.

With a limited number of vessels left, you have to be careful not to loose any major conflicts of battles. Every loss would be felt in the already diminished Fleet. your first assignment is to establish control over key resources inside Romulan space, while fighting both the Tal Shiar, and the rebel Remen, including people like Obisek. You''l use threat of force and intimidation, including eliminating key leaders on these locations. The whole cloak and dagger. You are ultimately trying to get worlds to fall in line with your faction.

After 10 levels of progression worth of these, you are then promoted and given the task of fueling the war between the KDF, who is still expanding into your empire, and attacking Feds, who despite still offering aid to your weaker colonies, causing both of those factions to intensify hostilities with you and your group, and now expanding your total enemy faction count to four. (we have yet to add in the Hirogen, who I'm willing to role in with the Tal Shiar).

Despite your limited forces, you eventually manage to over throw the Tal Shiar, and hold both the federation and KDf at bay for now, as they are still focused on fighting each other. You suffer losses from the Remens though, and you continue an almost genocidal campaign against them just to blunt their forces. (You can't ally with them, as they refuse to become second class citizens, and the leaders won't bring them to treat them as equals, as that isn't the old ways.)

In the final act of the story, You set up an government on Rator III, and now must go and bring the rest of the Romulans into your fold through force and subterfuge, all while fending off other claims for power from other Romulan factions and protect against assassination attempts. As you reach rank 50, you look back at a very weekend and shattered Romulan Empire, proud that despite having many enemies, you managed to Slavage the old Empire and breath life back into it. Now it's time to fight off the Klingons and the federation, who have now realized that you have been sabotaging their efforts, thanks to the remains of the Remens.

3) Game play: you'll be playing missions very similar to the KDfs, including the attack faction X, or Destroy faction Y ships. You'll also have missions where you have to over throw or bring incriminating evidence to leaders of Romulan colonies to get them to fall in line. You'll also be sent on mission to cross the neutral zone and shadow federation and Klingon ships, just to push their buttons before returning across the neutral zone all in a huff.

so there will be a few new types of missions only for Romulans, there will also be a lot of old KDF style grinds just to fill in the non story game of content. Areas where you can blow up all the different faction ships.

PvP wie, we'll be fracturing the already low community by introducing Rom vs KDF and Rom vs Fed maps, as the game currently doesn't have an open PvP system or larger tehn 5v5 maps. You also won't have the same STFs as teh KDf and Feds will not likely ally, even temporarily with an enemy who uses subterfuge and sabotage to undermine both Factions. The Klingons would treat you like they do the Undine, as honor-less dogs, and the feds would be too wary to even attempt anything involving trust, but hey, at least you got to be the sneaky back stabbers, plus the Romulans wouldn't team up with them anyways, because they are xenophobic, so there perspective is pointless.

Not to mention that many of the featured episodes would not make sense to play as the Romulans in our new Empire, as why would the Roms help the deferi? or investigate the drozana station and the dividians? they would be adding fuel to these catastrophes to help destabilize the other two factions.

4) Community : We'll also have a further fracturing of the player community, as there would be a third side competing for players. relegating the KDF into obsolescence. And even reducing the number of Feds, as you can only play one character at a time. Along with the PvP and STFs that I mentioned above, we would have a more serious problem. And that's not including that fact that many new players, as well as many players don't want to play the villians, and while the KDf can make case as being not evil or underhanded, the Romulans would be. So the draw for new players woudl be hampered. Not to say that there won't be many who want to be villains, just that that group is not the majority.

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All in All, this would not be the greatest faction, and that is not including how the Romulans would muster the forces to accomplish establishing an new Empire with out aid from the other factions. At Least D'tan is going to have the resource backing of the Feds and the KDF as he re-establishes a Romulan culture. And While that does include allowing Remens and other Romulan aliens to be equal members, it still a faction based on personal Honor and duty, which are the key charcateristics of a Romulan.

Romulans where underhanded because it was tactical advantage, but they always did things with a sense of personal honor. Except the Tal shiar, but there will always be those that have no honor. And all Romulans have a strong sense of duty, even willing to giver their live for this. They are not characterized by being back stabbing SOBs, as that is a select few, many of which are in politics, and many cases believe that it's the only way to better the Empire.

I for one am happy with the Republic, and Even D'tan makes it clear that you are first and foremost a Romulan. And considering how powerful the Tal Shiar is, with their alliances, it makes sense that D'tan would seek to level the playing field as loosing this over racial pride means the end of the Romulans and their culture for good. And so what if the republic is a little more peaceful? If I come across opposition, I'm not the tree hugging feds who allow them selves to be at a disadvantage just to establish a peace where it does not exist, but character who wants there to be no unnecessary conflicts, but will not back down from a fight, or be taken advantage of by others for the vain idea of peace. The Republic is "speak softly, but carry a big stick, Preferably the biggest stick and make sure the other is very much aware of it." style of Romulan. And these alliances are more self serving to the Romulans then to the other factions.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,405
# 122
05-13-2013, 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
The difference being that unlike the previous rulers, Sela doesn't have the military and social control to keep them loyal (particularly if she's been at odds with the Tal Shiar).
I don't think it is ever established or even referenced that she has exercised less military and social control compared to the other Romulan praetors-if anythign, she is painted as being in more control, even after the new retcons.

Before the retcons, there was definate evidence of the existance of a non-tal shiar military presence, both as ground troops and fleet ships-you fought a lot of non-Tal Shiar in many of the episodes, so I don't think that a non-tal shair military support is much of an issue. Besides, when she went into exile (and when she returned) she had her fleet with her, as well as her Hirogen allies. There's general Velal, for isntance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
That's what the Romulan Republic wants.
I'm going to have to disagree. They want to rebuild the RSE, but explicitly as something different in cultural values than the old RSE of TNG. it seems to me to be mroe of a 'grass is greener over there' sort of situation rather than out of Loyalty to the RSE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
That same episode mentions that the Tal Shiar are "the Romulan intelligence agency".

I acknowledge that they've retconned Sela's relationship with them with regards to STO, but I don't think that it ever effected anything before. It may have made Sela a bit more innocent regarding the Iconians, but we still don't know if she actually was working with them, or if Hakeev was going behind her back.

I'm far more upset about retconning Taris, because I always had a pet fan theory that she and the Tal Shiar were ordered by the Iconians to use Shinzon to destroy Earth in Nemesis, and now I'm not sure that can be true. Ah well.
I'm pretty sure that 'Face of the Enemy' is the only episode in which the tal Shair are mentioned by name, but lets not split hairs


Anyways, a retcon is a retcon. The whole introduction of the Romulan Republic rests on recons, without which a RSE faction would have been perfectly reasonable. Heck, even with the retcons, a lot of people have been saying they would *still* rather play as the RSE- they are that iconic. The Republic are neither necessary, nor a natural evolution of the storyline (since they required a lot of retcons to work).
We would be better off without them.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 68
# 123
05-13-2013, 09:50 PM
Methodus2063,

That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .

Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.

I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 59
# 124
05-13-2013, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warzerior View Post
Methodus2063,

That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .

Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.

I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
I'm still only lvl 36 on my Orion, and I started a KDf with the costume reboot to the Orions. There's not enough mission content to slide right on through, story wise. Am lookoing forward to the new content for KDF on the 21st.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,405
# 125
05-13-2013, 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warzerior View Post
Methodus2063,

That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .

Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.

I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
Honestly, I'd prefer that it was more like the KDF at start, or even a 'monster play' faction if it meant that we got to play the old Romulans. A half faction can always be expanded onto into a full faction-the update to the KDF shows this clearly. However, not only is the RR designed from the floor up to be a sort of 'inbetween' faction-one that borrows assets, episodes, etc heavily from the KDF and FED, but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 68
# 126
05-13-2013, 10:04 PM
"I'm going to have to disagree. They want to rebuild the RSE, but explicitly as something different in cultural values than the old RSE of TNG. it seems to me to be mroe of a 'grass is greener over there' sort of situation rather than out of Loyalty to the RSE."

I HATE and LOATHE the infamous "They".

Who is this "They", right now we just have D'Tan and unificationists. Admittedly, I have only gotten to level 11 because I do not want to spoil my Romulan and I only went to the beta test because I was absolutely curious what direction they took with the Romulan Republic and the Choice between Fed and KDF. Oh yes, I would not have played a Romulan if they "joined" one of them.

The Romulan Republic will have at some point convene a Senate not full of unificationists and then the "they" will be them. Not all Romulans left agree with him and that's said actually by Tovan himself. I'm sure more Romulans joining the Romulan Republic will eventually change the tone of the Romulan Republic.

If anything Parlimentaries, Senates, etc of our current world displays anything of how much disagreements there can be. The old Senate did oppose Taris before she dissolved them after all. The "new" Senate may eventually oppose D'Tan at some point.

The only big difference at this point is the Romulan Republic founders want a more open and less conquest oriented Republic. That is "for now", Democracy has a vary strange way of changing with the wind.

The Legacy of Romulus is opening the door to show how not all of the Romulans of this new Government are like the unificationists.

Last edited by warzerior; 05-13-2013 at 10:15 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 59
# 127
05-13-2013, 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Honestly, I'd prefer that it was more like the KDF at start, or even a 'monster play' faction if it meant that we got to play the old Romulans. A half faction can always be expanded onto into a full faction-the update to the KDF shows this clearly. However, not only is the RR designed from the floor up to be a sort of 'inbetween' faction-one that borrows assets, episodes, etc heavily from the KDF and FED, but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
I'd hate to live through another half finished faction debacle that the KDf went through. It took three years to bring them up to speed, and the wounds will never heal.

maybe in the future they'll open up monster play for the evil factions like the true way, the borg, and the Tal shiar, but even that won't be what players want.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
Rihannsu
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 68
# 128
05-13-2013, 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
You know that's patently false and what Romulan wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference which was long established before this faction came about.

You already had prior to this a Senate who opposed the Monarchy of Taris.

The real question I have for a lot of you, do you really see the RSE being ruled by a Dictator?

Considering we see the Helix etc, we might be seeing the factions of the Temporal Cold War coming together (here comes the Sabatoge etc).

Last edited by warzerior; 05-13-2013 at 10:11 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,606
# 129
05-13-2013, 10:18 PM
By the 24th century, the government of Romulus was dependent upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. The Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. Many Romulans fear even expressing dissenting opinions as not to spark the interest of the Tal Shiar. There were also indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. (TNG: "Face of the Enemy")

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan

At one point in history, Romulus was a sovereign nation ruled by an Empress, as indicated by Q. (VOY: "The Q and the Grey") By the 23rd century, the highest position of power was held by the Praetor, who presided over the Romulan Senate. (TOS: "Balance of Terror"; Star Trek Nemesis) The Praetor headed the Continuing Committee, which was comprised of the Empire's most elite individuals, who made decisions of the utmost importance. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges")
swimwear off risa not fixed
system Lord Baal is dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.

Last edited by daan2006; 05-13-2013 at 10:36 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,405
# 130
05-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warzerior View Post
You know that's patently false and what Romulan wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference which was long established before this faction came about.

You already had prior to this a Senate who opposed the Monarchy of Taris.

The real question I have for a lot of you, do you really see the RSE being ruled by a Dictator?

Considering we see the Helix etc, we might be seeing the factions of the Temporal Cold War coming together (here comes the Sabatoge etc).
We know that the Tal Shiar wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference, but they don't (or didn't rather) speak for Sela or the RSE as a whole. Theri whole operation was very explicitly very cloak and dagger.

....


What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted from?

Consdiering the RSE is and has been rueld by dictators in the past, it seems rather fitting that Sela be an Empress. I'd still prefer the Senate/Praetor system, but it seems within character for the RSE.

...

What does the Suliban have to do with anything?

As for your rant about pronouns, you do realize that I was talking about the Romulan Republic there, right? it should have been abundantly clear, considering that I was responding to a six word sentance (two of which were 'Romulan Republic) or were you just waxing a pit pedantic for the sake of drama? Not worth my time to reply to if you are just going to purposefully misinterpruet for the sake of drama.
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