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# 31
05-12-2013, 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkkindness2 View Post
WoW is ridiculously grey and grey for morality, though.
No. Its really not as grey as some would like to believe. Of course, evil is not tied to an entire faction, rather to some races from the Horde that are particularly extra evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
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# 32
05-12-2013, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepwe View Post
Fear not there's a Tal Shiar lockbox heading our way with the launch of LoR...I gots mah sources...
It would be just so perfect if the Rom lockbox would include a way to add the RSE prefix to a ship's name. Nothing like contradicting and undermining your whole argument right?

Lets hope they at least make such a prefix unlock account wide, should it indeed be in a lockbox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
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Posts: 1,672
# 33
05-12-2013, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by i131 View Post
Even if there were factions within the Republic, that would've sufficed. Donatrist military officers siding with Da'Tan's reunificationists against the common enemy of Sela and the Tal Shiar (and their Iconian backers). The enemy of my enemy, after all. But no. We are forced to play Romulans who think the past centuries of Romulan history was a mistake. That the Vulcans were right. That's......not Romulan, not as they were presented in Trek. And that, obviously, is what people were after. No-one said "I want to play Romulans, but specifically reunificationists.". They said "I want to play the Romulan Star Empire.". Hence the appointment's.
Nope, that's pretty much the thing you get. The Romulan Republic isn't made up of raving unificationists but of people who don't want to live under the rule of the Tal Shiar. If D'Tan would just enter Federation space and ask for asylum for him and his people most the Republic wouldn't follow. But he doesn't he wants a strong Romulan political entity again that can meet the Vulcans on equal terms. It's all about Romulan pride, not about their history being an almost two millenia lasting mistake.
Now if you want to play as an Empire, well then you're screwed. The Empire has been sold out to the Tal Shiar, the Elachi and the Iconians and has committed atrocities that will forever taint the name. There will never be a German Reich again either. So look into the future and make the Romulan Republic something to be proud of.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
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# 34
05-12-2013, 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
No. Its really not as grey as some would like to believe. Of course, evil is not tied to an entire faction, rather to some races from the Horde that are particularly extra evil.
more grey than the Romulan Republic, at any rate. These fellows are nicer than either the Klingons or the Federation, wheras on the shows they were usually much worse. It's liek bizarro land here on STO, with the Romulans being some of the nicest people around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
It would be just so perfect if the Rom lockbox would include a way to add the RSE prefix to a ship's name. Nothing like contradicting and undermining your whole argument right?

Lets hope they at least make such a prefix unlock account wide, should it indeed be in a lockbox.
You already can on Tribble, at least. No function aside from personal taste, unfortunately.

Last edited by catoblepasbeta; 05-12-2013 at 02:16 AM.
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# 35
05-12-2013, 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
more grey than the Romulan Republic, at any rate. These fellows are nicer than either the Klingons or the Federation, wheras on the shows they were usually much worse. It's liek bizarro land here on STO, with the Romulans being some of the nicest people around.
Nicer than the Federation or the Klingons? Okay, nicer than the Klingons maybe. But how much of that is belonging to a hunted minority that is in dire need of allies and how much is actually really "nice". What do the Romulans do that doesn't benefit their own survival. Heck, even Temer's sacrifice wasn't because he especially liked Woldan or thought that killing him was wrong. He did it because it was the only way to convince them to support his people.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
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# 36
05-12-2013, 02:25 AM
The IRW prefix is available thats what imperial warbirds use
(and me)
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# 37
05-12-2013, 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Nicer than the Federation or the Klingons? Okay, nicer than the Klingons maybe. But how much of that is belonging to a hunted minority that is in dire need of allies and how much is actually really "nice". What do the Romulans do that doesn't benefit their own survival. Heck, even Temer's sacrifice wasn't because he especially liked Woldan or thought that killing him was wrong. He did it because it was the only way to convince them to support his people.
A Romulan taking the hit and sacrificing himself to keep another Romulan from assassinating a high-ranking Klingon seems a bit of a far cry from TNG where you had a dying Romulan refuse a blood transfusion from Worf because it would 'taint' him.

In the various series there were always a few Romulans willing to give up everything for the good of the Empire. no matter how much they disagreed with it at times. The difference in LoR is that they aren't doing it for the Empire, they are destroying it. They don't want to preserve the empire, they want to build up a 'federation lite' which D'tan wants to then join with the Vulcans. What the Republci does, what Temer's sacrifice was for, is all towards the ultimate stated goal of building up somethign completely alien to the culture and values of the old RSE, and ultimately reunification with the Vulcans. There isn't so much 'grudgingly approaching your blood enemies out of desperation' as much as these Romulans really are that altruistic, self-sacrificing, and freedom-loving None of the Romulan commanders have any interest in any sort of personal advancement, or ulterior motives. In this was they are even more 'white hat' than the Bajorans from DS9 they have been stated as being based off of.

Instead of being machiavellian arrogant and cunning social darwinists for whom 'the ends justify the means' being second only to loyalty to the empire, we basically have the Rebel Alliance.
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# 38
05-12-2013, 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
A Romulan taking the hit and sacrificing himself to keep another Romulan from assassinating a high-ranking Klingon seems a bit of a far cry from TNG where you had a dying Romulan refuse a blood transfusion from Worf because it would 'taint' him.
Context please. It's "A Romulan taking the hit and sacrificing himself to keep another Romulan, who is about to torture, enslave and kill his family and friends, from assassinating a high-ranking Klingon, who is vital to protecting his people against the Romulan who is trying to kill him."
Also the other Romulan in that TNG episode was not above working with someone who would have been killed at birth in Romulan society. And this wasn't about one life like the idiot who needed the transfusion, it was about the whole Republic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
In the various series there were always a few Romulans willing to give up everything for the good of the Empire. no matter how much they disagreed with it at times. The difference in LoR is that they aren't doing it for the Empire, they are destroying it.
The Empire is already destroyed. The people who are currently leading it destroyed the homeworld, sold out its people to their enemies and allowed the Hirogen to hunt in their space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
They don't want to preserve the empire, they want to build up a 'federation lite' which D'tan wants to then join with the Vulcans. What the Republci does, what Temer's sacrifice was for, is all towards the ultimate stated goal of building up somethign completely alien to the culture and values of the old RSE, and ultimately reunification with the Vulcans.
So I guess you would be happier if they would try to ursurp the current unfit leadership of the Empire to preserve it and install D'Tan as Emperor? Yeah, sorry, they are too weak for that, and the Federation and Klingons wouldn't bother helping them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
There isn't so much 'grudgingly approaching your blood enemies out of desperation' as much as these Romulans really are that altruistic, self-sacrificing, and freedom-loving None of the Romulan commanders have any interest in any sort of personal advancement, or ulterior motives. In this was they are even more 'white hat' than the Bajorans from DS9 they have been stated as being based off of.
Survival > Personal Advancement. Only a complete moron tries to ursurp power when he's in danger to be abducted into a torture chamber the next day where a higher rank will make sure that you get extra attention. To care about personal advancement you need a stability that currently doesn't exist. You saw it with Avrak on Virinat who tried to make Nevala look bad, where she said that was because he wanted a promotion. Yeah, Virinat had at that time just reached stability so they went back to that. Time will tell how the Republic will develop when it survives into 2410.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Instead of being machiavellian arrogant and cunning social darwinists for whom 'the ends justify the means' being second only to loyalty to the empire, we basically have the Rebel Alliance.
Yeah, sorry for you but THIS IS STAR TREK!
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
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# 39
05-12-2013, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Context please. It's "A Romulan taking the hit and sacrificing himself to keep another Romulan, who is about to torture, enslave and kill his family and friends, from assassinating a high-ranking Klingon, who is vital to protecting his people against the Romulan who is trying to kill him."
Also the other Romulan in that TNG episode was not above working with someone who would have been killed at birth in Romulan society. And this wasn't about one life like the idiot who needed the transfusion, it was about the whole Republic.
it was a self-sacrificing and noble death that touched the hearts of the Klingon delegates. A hero's death, definately. And that's all it was. It was there to highlight how just and noble and good the Romulan Republic is, because Cryptic wants to distance them as far as possible from the Romulans of old.

To highlight my point further, you bring up the infanticide ?!? I think that just goes to show even more how different the Republic is from the RSE in every concievable way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
The Empire is already destroyed. The people who are currently leading it destroyed the homeworld, sold out its people to their enemies and allowed the Hirogen to hunt in their space.
in case you haven't noticed, there is already a RSE. It already exists, Sela is the leader. The 'sold out their people' etc because Cryptic wrote them as black hats to their RR white hat counterparts, made even more comically blatent with the LOR update.
But fact of the matter is, the RSE has had little to no difficulty surviving after Sela assumes power, despite all the self-sabotage Cryptic has written in.

At any rate, the RR is 'selling their people out to their enemies' by allying with the Feds and KDF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
So I guess you would be happier if they would try to ursurp the current unfit leadership of the Empire to preserve it and install D'Tan as Emperor? Yeah, sorry, they are too weak for that, and the Federation and Klingons wouldn't bother helping them.
They could just have been written as a political movement within the Romulan government/military. But having a more complex interaction with Sela and the Tal Shiar other than 'shoot first, don't bother asking questions later' could have 'heaven forefend!' given the illusion that there might be actual chocies at stake here or even soem moral ambiguity. All aboard the Cryptic railroad, choo choo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Survival > Personal Advancement. Only a complete moron tries to ursurp power when he's in danger to be abducted into a torture chamber the next day where a higher rank will make sure that you get extra attention. To care about personal advancement you need a stability that currently doesn't exist. You saw it with Avrak on Virinat who tried to make Nevala look bad, where she said that was because he wanted a promotion. Yeah, Virinat had at that time just reached stability so they went back to that. Time will tell how the Republic will develop when it survives into 2410.
Slea managed personal advancement while not only surviving under possibly even more dire circumstances, but also managed to revitalize the empire and bring in an era of peace and stability, if the data chips are anything to go by. So none of those points you bring up are really valid, the emprie was stablized up until the moment Cryptic decided to throw everything out and start from scratch for the sake of squeezing a few more players out of that stone by mutilating everything that was at the very core of what Romulans are about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Yeah, sorry for you but THIS IS STAR TREK!
Exactly, and these are not Star Trek's Romulans.
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# 40
05-12-2013, 04:01 AM
Over the backstory of the game and the first few arcs of the Romulan arc, the Tal'shiar has done the following:

1. Allied with the Iconians, who are basically the biggest evil in the universe, and the Elachi, who are... well, unpleasant. Profoundly unpleasant. Moreso than the Fek'ihri. Honestly, given what we - and they - know of the Iconians, this act alone likely puts them past the moral event horizon. However, for acts of cosmic evil, the next definitely does.

2. They then DESTROYED ROMULUS. Wiped out a huge number of Romulan citizens, for what has, at least thus far, turned out to be no really good reason. The leadership of the Empire consists of a group of people who committed genocide against their own population, and blew up the center of their culture, in the process of selling what remains of their people - along with the rest of the galaxy - to the demons of air and shadow.

3. Then there's the experiment - kidnapping people, kidnapping Romulans, to experiment on them using Borg and Iconian technology, against their will, for the betterment of... well, of the Iconians, apparently, because the Romulan people sure aren't benefiting from it.

4. Then it gets personal - the Romulan player character is a colonist in the backwater of Romulan space, without any real interest in getting involved in the war. Then the Tal'shiar and the Elachi show up and destroy the colony, kidnapping most of its people for use in the aforementioned experiments that aren't actually going to help the Romulans, and killing the bulk of the remainder, including everyone the character knows and loves except Tovan Khev.

5. But what have they done to ME, you ask, though if you still have to ask that after point 4 you're likely a sociopath. But Mind Games gives the answer to that - they kidnap the Romulan player character, stripping her of her control over herself and her own mind in a scene that's VERY reminiscent of both torture and ****. They commit an unforgivable violation of the playable character.

So... WHY does anyone want to ally with this lot again?
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