Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,391
I understand that thematically "Go Down Fighting" does not make sense to always be available. This seems to be a branding (name) issue and not realistically a mechanics issue.


However, the reality of this game's combat mechanics make having your Captain Tier power grayed out until under 50% health very far from ideal. Again, a mechanics issue.


While I think theme is nice, I think mechanically viable and/or logical should always come first.


Issues:

1) MW and Photonic Fleet are both getting CD reductions, which translates to uptime increases. GDF remains at current CD (4mins), however it is getting a conditional use attached effectively reducing its uptime. i.e. a nerf.


2) The New trait is nice, however I am unconvinced it is sufficient to prevent one-shots in this game, from either NPCs (Elite Torpedo damage scales) or players (coordinated spike damage). It only lasts 15s, and if your enemies are hitting raw hull its likely that you are going to die anyway.



3) PvP: If coordinated spike damage isn't enough of an issue, SNB still trumps GDF. So your 4 min CD that now requires you to be under 50% hull to even use, can simply be stripped off (along with every other buff) by another power that has 2x faster cooldown (2 min).



In summary:


I think the design of GDF needs a rethink.

Either remove the 50% condition, or make it work in some fashion similar to the Andorian Fury ground trait, or give it protection from instant death/buff strips, etc.

I'm not looking for GDF to be overpowered.

I simply do not think it's equitable that there will be cases where you potentially will either never be able to use this, or use it but die/get SNBd almost instantly after regardless - promptly going back on 4 min CD.




I'll also say that yes, I understand that there are times you may not realistically need MW - and I am 100% in favor of making MW usable on self AND allies to alleviate that.




Further thoughts on the issue of damage stacking:



PvP is a team game, and in that game Sci captains are still king.


A Tac can blow every single cooldown they have, from 90s CDs to 4 & 5 minute CDs. EPTS, APO, TT, RSP, CRF, the works.

A single Sci captain only needs 1 power, on 2 min CD, to completely remove all of that.


A single well applied SNB does significantly more "damage" to the opposing team than any one tac captain stacking his big CDs like APA + GDF.


That's right, ONE Sci captain power is more powerful than every single Tac captain power used together in a massive stack.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 05-20-2013 at 08:32 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 285
# 2
05-13-2013, 02:21 PM
I am not a fan of the 50% hull activation abilities either. This might have worked to "balance" Ramming Speed or rather kill it, barely useful anymore, but GDF shouldn't become a rarely ever used ability, too.

The related player trait to GDF also sucks. I hope this will get changed soon, otherwise it's simply that:

-1 skill for Tac players.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,965
# 3
05-13-2013, 02:35 PM
this seems like a nerf to tacs, done in such a way that most players wouldn't really understand it as a nerf. GDF only after your at 50% health is a nerf to on demand spike capability for a tac. now it will only be useful as a table turning ability in a desperate fight.

its a silly skill all together really. in most duels, its the person that takes serious damage first that wins, rather then the person who succeeded in doing better in the fight. feels pretty cheap to be killed because you got GDF'ed, instead of getting killed because you got out flown.


zombie mode is already op, to the point were you need to stack all those tac buffs to even have a chance to kill most good players. yet MW is going to get more chances to heal grievous damage, undoing successful spike that just got nerfed, and theres going to be more photonic fleet spam then ever.


it really all comes down to buffed being to much better then unbuffed, in all ways. to much resistance, to much healing, to much damage multiplying, and to little base hitpoints and base damage
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 4
05-13-2013, 02:42 PM
In full agreement. Limiting profession specific abilities is a massive error.

As I see it there are really only two solutions: keep GDF as it is or convert it fully to a trait and replace it.

1) Revert changes to pre-LoR (current holodeck) functionality. - Not really a solution, but at the least not a breaking.

or

2) Convert entirely to a trait - Make it a passive, scaling damage (and possibly resist buff) that increases in magnitude as the player takes hull damage. Would need to be weaker than the current implementation, perhaps starting at 15, and capping at 30%? Could very well keep the 50% health activation threshold.

Additional options include making it a proc ability that increases in likelihood of activating as the ship takes damage.

Replace in the Captain skill stable with new ability (some form of self Accuracy buff/placate immunity/minor damage buff comes to mind).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,391
# 5
05-13-2013, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by longasc View Post
I am not a fan of the 50% hull activation abilities either. This might have worked to "balance" Ramming Speed or rather kill it, barely useful anymore, but GDF shouldn't become a rarely ever used ability, too.

The related player trait to GDF also sucks. I hope this will get changed soon, otherwise it's simply that:

-1 skill for Tac players.

Absolutely.

As it is in PvP:

APA: Excellent, working as it should.

Fire on my Mark: Is generally almost instantly cleared by Tac Team, one of the most ubiquitous powers in the game. This power against any competent team will only last on a target for 5 to 10s maximum.

Tac Initiative: No hyperbole, this ability is borderline useless to 9 out of 10 Tac/Escort builds. Escort Tac seating abundance, CD Doffs of all stripes and a lack of Tac BOFF power options to begin with make it extremely marginal.

GDF: Now locked to 50% hull or less. 4 Min CD.

Tac Fleet: Works like other fleets, although it only boosts 22% and not 30% as is listed. Hampered by massive cooldown so it is not really an "on demand" tool by any stretch. Still, it's inline with other Fleet abilities, I suppose.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
In full agreement. Limiting profession specific abilities is a massive error.

As I see it there are really only two solutions: keep GDF as it is or convert it fully to a trait and replace it.

1) Revert changes to pre-LoR (current holodeck) functionality. - Not really a solution, but at the least not a breaking.

or

2) Convert entirely to a trait - Make it a passive, scaling damage (and possibly resist buff) that increases in magnitude as the player takes hull damage. Would need to be weaker than the current implementation, perhaps starting at 15, and capping at 30%? Could very well keep the 50% health activation threshold.

Additional options include making it a proc ability that increases in likelihood of activating as the ship takes damage.

Replace in the Captain skill stable with new ability (some form of self Accuracy buff/placate immunity/minor damage buff comes to mind).


Some good ideas there stirling, and drunk as well.


Thanks for the input guys.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 310
# 6
05-13-2013, 05:47 PM
It's definitely a nerf. I wish they had just rescaled it instead.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 7
05-13-2013, 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I understand that thematically "Go Down Fighting" does not make sense to always be available. This seems to be a branding (name) issue and not realistically a mechanics issue.


However, the reality of this game's combat mechanics make having your Captain Tier power grayed out until under 50% health very far from ideal. Again, a mechanics issue.


While I think theme is nice, I think mechanically viable and/or logical should always come first.


Issues:

1) MW and Photonic Fleet are both getting CD reductions, which translates to uptime increases. GDF remains at current CD (4mins), however it is getting a conditional use attached effectively reducing its uptime. i.e. a nerf.


2) The New trait is nice, however I am unconvinced it is sufficient to prevent one-shots in this game, from either NPCs (Elite Torpedo damage scales) or players (coordinated spike damage). It only lasts 15s, and if you're enemies are hitting raw hull its likely that you are going to die anyway.



3) PvP: If coordinated spike damage isn't enough of an issue, SNB still trumps GDF. So your 4 min CD that now requires you to be under 50% hull to even use, can simply be stripped off (along with every other buff) by another power that has 2x faster cooldown (2 min).



In summary:


I think the design of GDF needs a rethink.

Either remove the 50% condition, or make it work in some fashion similar to the Andorian Fury ground trait, or give it protection from instant death/buff strips, etc.

I'm not looking for GDF to be overpowered.

I simply do not think it's equitable that there will be cases where you potentially will either never be able to use this, or use it but die/get SNBd almost instantly after regardless - promptly going back on 4 min CD.




I'll also say that yes, I understand that there are times you may not realistically need MW - and I am 100% in favor of making MW usable on self AND allies to alleviate that.
The old GDF on holo is fine as it was. Its just tampering with stuff that aint broken.

Look at how they totally ruined Ramming speed and abandon ship, I could see abandon ship being abused, but ramming speed was way more fun when you could do as you please at 100% even.

Cryptic logic.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,315
# 8
05-14-2013, 01:39 AM
Ugh. Let me toss a second ugh out there too. How about a third? Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

As much as I dislike the overall entitlement that Tacs display...one could say I all but despise Tacs because of that, this one is kind of a no-brainer in their favor.

It's not a Thematic Issue, imho. It's a Tense issue.

The reason that Go Down Fighting should remain like it is on Holo is simple:

It's Go Down Fighting.
It's not Going Down Fighting.

It's a mindset. The Tac is deciding to Go Down Fighting. It's not a case that they're going down and they're going to continue Going Down Fighting.

It's that simple...

...meh, can't believe I'm supporting something that favors Tacs.

Then again, I like to think/feel/believe I'm looking at overall balance. So while there are plenty of other things I can still complain about in regard to both Tacs and Escorts; it still means having to support them when something that is being done to them simply is not right.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 121
# 9
05-14-2013, 01:40 AM
Vang logic

If I were captain of starship, I wouldn't ram my ship at enemy unless my hull was buckling and I was out of options. Something I think every star trek captain would agree. I guess my logic is Cryptic's logic!

Go down fighting! (Vang logic)

If I knew my hull was buckling and there was a chance that my ship was dying (realistically), then I would order my crew to 'overload' my weapons to give it a damage increase boost (risky since i could blow up my ship by my weapons overloading) to shoot at my enemies with everything I have defiantly. Knowing that my ship is dying then what the hell...I'd risk the chance of being blown up by my weapons overloading for a chance to deal more damage than usual to my enemies.

That is the logic of Go down fighting. If you cannot accept that then don't play!

And since alot of decent pvp tactical players don't pop GDF straight way whereas they time their buffs and keeping firing for a sustained burst which is what any respectible pvp player is going to do in most situations, will hardly be affected by the upcoming changes much since alot of them delibrately allow their hulls to get to 50% in order to make GDF that much more effective currently on Holodeck.

Honestly, I don't know what your complaining about

I am pretty sure if they suddenly buffed say feedback pulse tomorrow, you (you know who I'm talking to) would complain that its broken or overpowered, so please don't give me that "Its just tampering with stuff that aint broken"


"Respect yourself and others will respect you."
― Confucius, Sayings of Confucius

Last edited by spacefortress; 05-14-2013 at 02:23 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,315
# 10
05-14-2013, 02:00 AM
The mindset need not only occur as one is going down. How many shows/movies/works of fiction/even real life...have the otherwise perfectly healthy person/ship/etc charging in with the mindset that they will go down fighting? It's there...it's that simple. Countless examples.

Consider beserkers for a moment. There were those berserkers that would enter a berserk rage in the midst of combat - becoming enraged as they were injured or saw friends getting injured. There were also those berserkers that simply got worked up into that frenzy going into the fight.

Go Down Fighting left the door open for it to apply to both cases.

Now on the other hand, they added a new trait. Last Ditch Effort. Now that, should only apply when the Tac is below 50%, etc, etc, etc. Again, because it's got the tense for it...they're already in the process of the Go Down Fighting...they're going to apply a Last Ditch Effort as they continue to Go Down Fighting.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
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