Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 235
# 21
05-16-2013, 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladymyajha View Post

Secondly, in TNG, they state specifically that the D'Deridex is slower then the Galaxy class.
It says it's slower at warp not at sub light. and in the show it's more maneuverable. It is able to match the enterprises movements from within a few km and keep that distance the entire time.

The speed was mentioned in Tin Man but the maneuverings were shown on the one Troy was forced to impersonate a Tal'Shiar officer

Last edited by wardcalis; 05-16-2013 at 11:55 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 12
# 22
05-17-2013, 01:07 AM
Mass of the ship should have NOTHING to do with a ships basic performance in the age of Star Trek.

DS9, for example, they moved it thru normal space with the assistance of a subspace field to circumvent its mass. So, in as many years as have past, no one has integrated a similar technology to large craft, like Cruisers? These ships already have the ability to create subspace fields to alter their mass.

Saying that its turn rate is OK because of its mass is just ridiculous.
That's applying 20th Century thinking to a 25th Century problem.

In this game, to deny any ship maneuverability is directly equivalent to denying it function.
Turn rate is the #1 looked for stat by most build creators, for anything other than a heal-boat.
I'm not saying it should perform like an escort, it should be different.
But to limit any ship to 20% the base turn rate of the best turning ship in the game is just ludicrous.

Cryptic has just made Turn Rate too darn important.

But the power creep of this game makes this type of ship nonfunctional.
Nonfunctional referring to, if its 'situational' abilities are on cooldown, it can't hold its own.
No 'situational' ability, console or otherwise will fix this, its flawed at the core.

The power loss due to the singularity mechanic makes things even worse.

For everything you add to this ship for maneuverability, you take away something, be it survivability, or functionality.
The best you end up with is something that might do something OK, once in a while, but does nothing well, or often.

Please fix this Cryptic, and the Galaxy that you compare it to.

Ships like this are just NOT FUN.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,116
# 23
05-17-2013, 01:16 AM
Do people fly a Recluse without issue?
Do people fly a Vo'Quv without issue?
Do people fly a Bortasqu' without issue?

Then the issue is not with the D'deridex...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wardcalis View Post
it's the greatest ship in startrek history
...just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnterphase View Post
Turn rate is the #1 looked for stat by most build creators
Hrmmm...can you get most of them to come here and agree with you on that?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 12
# 24
05-17-2013, 01:33 AM
Probably not, so just strike that idea

The Galaxy is also one of the greatest ships in Star Trek history
And its continually compared to the D'Deridex

Is the Galaxy one of the greatest ships in Star Trek 'Online' history?

If the amount of complaints about it reflect anything, that question answers itself.

How many satisfied Tier 5 Galaxy owners do you know? How many do you see?
Can you get them to come here and verify that?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 452
# 25 All or none
05-17-2013, 01:50 AM
I think it is not about the turn rate of the D'D, but for all large Cruisers (and maybe the Carriers). It would be nice to give all Cruisers a 1 to 1.5 degree improvement and Carriers a 0.5 improvements. There should not be such a large gap between Cruisers and other ships in game (of course the goal is to maintain balance). The new PvP needs to make Cruisers and even Science ships more viable. The next item of concern will be DPS for non-Escort ships (e.g., multiple phaser hit DPS for cruisers and Science exploit boost toe DPS for science ships).
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,116
# 26
05-17-2013, 02:13 AM
There's a ton of information available from the shows/movies to show where they did the Galaxy wrong. Though I'm not a fan of the Galaxy in the least, one can easily see many of the valid points some Galaxy fans have about how the ship was treated in the game. Doesn't mean there aren't those Galaxy fans as well - who believe the ship should be the best thing ever. There's a difference between fans and fanatics.

You suggested making it an Escort in the other thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnterphase View Post
Cryptic, want to release a version of this ship that people can really get excited about? Here is your template.

Breen Chel Grett Crusier
The Breen Chel Grett Warship is not a Cruiser. It's an Escort. Even sports the Escort +10% Bonus Defense. Yep, that 13 Turn makes it the slowest turning Escort...1 less than the Vet Ship. It's still an Escort though.

The D'deridex is a Battle Cruiser. It needs to be compared to other Battle Cruisers...not to Escorts.

Fleet D'deridex vs...
Fleet Negh'var
Fleet Tor'Kaht (painful to include, but technically it is a Battle Cruiser)
Fleet K't'inga
Fleet Kamarag
The Bortasqu' Brothers

Based on turn, that comparison might start with the Bortasqu' boats. It may start elsewhere within that, eh?

Course, there's also the funky BOFF layout. Some might even start that comparison with Carriers instead of Battle Cruisers. Seeing if the D'deridex gets anything for the lack of hangars.

But still...those are the areas where the comparisons would be made, no?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,116
# 27
05-17-2013, 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentinel64 View Post
I think it is not about the turn rate of the D'D, but for all large Cruisers (and maybe the Carriers). It would be nice to give all Cruisers a 1 to 1.5 degree improvement and Carriers a 0.5 improvements. There should not be such a large gap between Cruisers and other ships in game (of course the goal is to maintain balance). The new PvP needs to make Cruisers and even Science ships more viable. The next item of concern will be DPS for non-Escort ships (e.g., multiple phaser hit DPS for cruisers and Science exploit boost toe DPS for science ships).
I've never favored boosting turn. No, what I've favored tends to tick off both sides. It upsets those that want Cruiser turn boosted and it upsets the Escortjocks when they read I think Escort turn needs diminishing returns.

I do not believe that Cruisers turn too slow nor that Escorts turn too fast...I do believe that Escorts can turn too fast. There's a difference between "turn too fast" and "can turn too fast"...the base numbers are fine, but how high those numbers can be pushed can create problems.

I've got a Hegh'ta...the base turn is 21. The base turn of 21 is not the issue. The issue is that the unbuffed turn for the guy in the ship is actually over 45. But then again, it's the same for any ship I've got. All of their unbuffed turns are just over twice the base turn. Chel's around 26, RSV's around 26, Vo'Quv is around 9-10, etc, etc, etc. Yep, even the D'deridex is 10-12.

The issue, imho, is the static math there - there's no scale - there's no limit. It's just a flat modifier that brings you out to about just over half.

Course, even though I said I was just going to look at turn - this isn't the only place Cryptic math is...bad...like that, imho.

The ratio between DHCs and Beam Arrays? 1.74:1 DPV and 1.45:1 DPS. Those ratios stay the same. So guess what happens as people are able to do more and more damage? The actual damage gap between DHCs and Beam Arrays grows and grows. Ratio stays the same. Gap grows. That's before you take into account firing cycles and resists/healing as well as drain mechanics.

There are limits/scaling in place for Hull Damage Resistance, Shield Damage Reduction, To-Hit, etc, etc, etc...those limits, that kind of scaling, is missing from things like damage and turn.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 28
05-17-2013, 02:36 AM
if theres anything cryptic should have learned from the Bortasqu sales, its that cruisers with the lowest turn rate, especially battle cruisers that are ruined by their turn rate, dont sell. at least the d'deridex has a large fan following and is a canon ship, but i would not be surprised if its individual sales weren't the lowest of the retrofits. even the c store ha'apax thing will sell better, it can separate in half, like the ody that sold real well.


heres some practical reasons it should have a beter turn rate

-its a battle cruisers, and it needs to have a turn rate between 9 and 11. 9 would be just fine.

-the ship has much less volume then just the top section, and may be about even in volume as the bottom section of the ha'apax. those sections separately turn at 10 and 16, just because they are an escort and sci ship.

so regardless of size, those ships move like they are supposed to, and they are larger ships then the d'deridex. only the battle cruisers d'deridex has to endure a terrible turn rate, because. this is indefensible.


prove me wrong about the 2 ha'apax sections being larger devs. calculate how much space the models displace and compare the 2. that would give a ship volume reading.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,184
# 29
05-17-2013, 02:38 AM
I stop paying attention to these kinds of threads when someone starts to bring canon into the mix.



But if the ship is not to your liking don't use it. I'm surprised Cryptic actually listened about the BO layout, but like always give an inch take a mile with this playerbase.


This ship is not like the KDF, or FED counterparts....which means you will have to learn a new way to play her...I know it's hard for some payers to try something new especially Star Trek fans who just live in the past. The cookie cutter builds for the other faction ships are not going to work with these ship, so it's time for some to think outside the box a little...Or just wait for a good player to find it for you and just copy him.

The Following signature is not endorsed by the Dukat administration, and Down with Bajor Party



Last edited by neoakiraii; 05-17-2013 at 02:42 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 30
05-17-2013, 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
This ship is not like the KDF, or FED counterparts....which means you will have to learn a new way to play her...I know it's hard for some payers to try something new especially Star Trek fans who just live in the past. The cookie cutter builds for the other faction ships are not going to work with these ship, so it's time for some to think outside the box a little...Or just wait for a good player to find it for you and just copy him.
the verbatim spewed by someone who has huge gaps in his game knowledge, and knows it, saying to just play it differently. as if there is a perfectly good way to use the ship as is, and its us thats the problem. better throw in cookie cutter too, thats always a favorite.

spare me, please.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
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