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# 21
05-19-2013, 04:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Nah, the whole emissary story arc was against everything Roddenberry wanted. Kirk would have told the prophets to close their ******n wormhole and stop pretending to be gods on Bajor. And the war? Yeah, nice the Federation won by using illegal weapons of mass destruction. Weeeeee, that's what Roddenberry was all about as we know.
good thing gene moved away from that cowboy diplomacy in TNG
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.

Last edited by daan2006; 05-19-2013 at 04:15 AM.
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# 22
05-19-2013, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daan2006 View Post
good thing gene moved away from that cowboy diplomacy in TNG
Picard at least still broke the prime directive to set things right with the Mintakans. A shame about the Edo though....
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 23
05-19-2013, 04:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Oh, I did. So instead of just making baseless claims you could try to tell me where I went wrong.
Gladly.

Quote:
Kirk would have told the prophets to close their ******n wormhole and stop pretending to be gods on Bajor.
I'm sure Roddenberry would have made an episode about a white man destroying a native religion and wouldn't have seen that as problematic due to the naivet? he often displayed about that sort of thing.

However, the Prophets aren't pretending to be gods. They never use that term themselves, nor do they directly interact with the Bajorans at all (hence the need for an "emissary"). It's the Bajorans who interpreted their handful of encounters with them that way.

Quote:
And the war? Yeah, nice the Federation won by using illegal weapons of mass destruction.
Actually, the war ended when the Federation cured Section 31's weapon at great risk to the main characters.

The disease actually made things a lot worse, to the point where the Female Changeling was prepared to bleed the entire Alpha Quadrant dry and take as many people down with her as she could. The entire point of Section 31 was to show how ruthless solutions and ruthless people often backfire make things worse. I don't blame you for missing that, as STO also misses it in it's quest to make Franklin Drake the most annoying character in the franchise's history.

The Dominion finally settled on peace only after Odo agreed to return to the Great Link and freely share the cure with all the Founders.
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# 24
05-19-2013, 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
I'm sure Roddenberry would have made an episode about a white man destroying a native religion and wouldn't have seen that as problematic due to the naivet? he often displayed about that sort of thing.
He did it tons of times. And Kirk didn't bother with destroying religions, he cut such unhealthy cults off at the roots and let the people figure out the rest for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
However, the Prophets aren't pretending to be gods. They never use that term themselves, nor do they directly interact with the Bajorans at all (hence the need for an "emissary"). It's the Bajorans who interpreted their handful of encounters with them that way.
You forget the orbs, and almost throwing the Bajorans a few hundred years back with the fake emissary just to prove a point to Sisko. (Didn't one even die because he was of the wrong caste? That one's on the prophets.) Really, wrecking that wormhole would have been the best for the whole quadrant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
Actually, the war ended when the Federation cured Section 31's weapon at great risk to the main characters.

The disease actually made things a lot worse, to the point where the Female Changeling was prepared to bleed the entire Alpha Quadrant dry and take as many people down with her as she could. The entire point of Section 31 was to show how ruthless solutions and ruthless people often backfire make things worse.[...]

The Dominion finally settled on peace only after Odo agreed to return to the Great Link and freely share the cure with all the Founders.
Now the interesting question is what would have happened if Section 31 had not infected the founders? The Dominion was still powerful enough to win, and the blind hatred and fear of "solids" alone was enough to keep the founders going, not mentioning that the female founder made some of the most tactically unsound decisions while sick. What if she had not tried to exterminate the Cardassians?
I think Roddenberry would have (well, if DS9 would have ever gotten there with him) done more with the servant races of the Dominion instead of two or three one-off episodes about rebels. The resolution of curing the disease Section 31 made and getting peace in exchange leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaanithegreen View Post
I don't blame you for missing that, as STO also misses it in it's quest to make Franklin Drake the most annoying character in the franchise's history.
There we have some common ground. God, how I want to shoot him. And the only time the game allows you to do it, it's pretty obvious that he's supposed to be in the right AND it's just a holoprogram.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
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# 25
05-19-2013, 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
Picard at least still broke the prime directive to set things right with the Mintakans. A shame about the Edo though....
not like kirk would have kirk would have dun that just to save or kiss some hot girl picard was going to let a kid die because of it and if had not been for data disobeying orders still would have let the kid die

and btw every captain has dun that in some way or another
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.

Last edited by daan2006; 05-19-2013 at 05:08 AM.
Rihannsu
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Posts: 725
# 26
05-19-2013, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by assimilatedktar View Post
He did it tons of times. And Kirk didn't bother with destroying religions, he cut such unhealthy cults off at the roots and let the people figure out the rest for themselves.
Faith in the Prophets helped drive the resistance that allowed the Bajoran people to survive five decades of occupation. That's not an unhealthy cult, but a very real faith in something that does have a bit of truth behind it, even if the Federation interprets that truth differently.

It can be harmful in the hands of fanatics, but then, so can the Federation's ideals. That's what gives us Section 31, and that's part of why people hate DS9.

Quote:
You forget the orbs
I forgot the word "rarely" in that sentence. The Prophets rarely interact with the Bajorans, usually indirectly.

Quote:
Really, wrecking that wormhole would have been the best for the whole quadrant.
Except for the entire race of sapient beings living inside of it. Genocide (cultural and literal) is not good, even if the captain can act smug about it.

Quote:
Now the interesting question is what would have happened if Section 31 had not infected the founders?
What would have happened if the Romulans had infected the Founders? Or the Cardassians? What if they'd have done that, instead of trying to eradicate them with a surprise attack?

That's ultimately the question. Would it have been different if non-humans did it? Yes, because Humans are a superior race . . . and that's bad. That's the mistake Roddenberry too often made. It undermines his entire point. Way too much of early TNG is the Enterprise showing up at some alien planet to announce that the Federation is superior to the silly aliens. In his race to make humanity perfect, Roddenberry made them seem bigoted and arrogant.

DS9's humans are not a race of omni-moralistic future spacemen. They are actually human. They don't just pay lip service to the idea of bettering themselves: they actually struggle to achieve it, and by doing so, are far above the early TNG episodes that Roddenberry himself created.

Section 31 provides a contrast with the protagonists that very sharply illustrates that the ideals of the Federation are superior to the cynicism and realpolitik that we too often embrace. They're effective at showing the actual content of his message as it relates to actual humanity, and not just characters in a fictional universe.

Do I think Roddenberry would have liked it? No, but I think his reasons for disliking it would have been superficial. DS9 is not betraying his message; it's challenging it to show why it works, something he himself would have never stood for.

Quote:
The Dominion was still powerful enough to win
No, they weren't. The Dominion War was coming to an end anyway. The Federation Alliance could have just soldiered on and eliminated the Dominion forever. They chose to allow Odo to return to the Great Link.
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# 27
05-19-2013, 06:33 AM
While I am happy Star Trek is producing new content in ANY form, just so the idea of Star Trek stays in the public consciousness, there are some things I don't care for about this new series. NO SPOILERS will follow.

My main issue is that it seems to me virtually all the set dressings should be in a Flash Gordon movie. Phasers should not go "pew-pew". Why does EVERY wall have a light in it?

The story is ok, a little obvious in some places. I'm not a fan of "We can change anything we want because it's an alternate dimension" - then it takes Star Trek clich?s and does the exact opposite of what happened originally. It was kind of cute in the first one, but got pretty old by the second.

Also not a fan of the way Kirk has been written, this Kirk is arrogant and irresponsible (NOT Kirk when he was young), Kirk was VERY MUCH by-the-book in the ToS, and only "bent" the rules in the movies because he had the benefit of a LIFETIME of experience to back him up. He is like a caricature of Kirk from the movies, and this extends to all the characters (and the Klingons) to some degree.

Also, from the first movie a quick question - If a black hole is actually a portal through time (and doesn't simply crush people and ships to the size of an atom), why does creating one not send the supernova back to to the past to destroy the galaxy, why does thatjust disappear? (I mean one or the other - either a black hole "sucks things out of existence OR it teleports things through time - but in JJ's it does BOTH at the SAME TIME)
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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# 28
05-19-2013, 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckner3 View Post
While I am happy Star Trek is producing new content in ANY form, just so the idea of Star Trek stays in the public consciousness, there are some things I don't care for about this new series. NO SPOILERS will follow.

My main issue is that it seems to me virtually all the set dressings should be in a Flash Gordon movie. Phasers should not go "pew-pew". Why does EVERY wall have a light in it?

The story is ok, a little obvious in some places. I'm not a fan of "We can change anything we want because it's an alternate dimension" - then it takes Star Trek clich?s and does the exact opposite of what happened originally. It was kind of cute in the first one, but got pretty old by the second.

Also not a fan of the way Kirk has been written, this Kirk is arrogant and irresponsible (NOT Kirk when he was young), Kirk was VERY MUCH by-the-book in the ToS, and only "bent" the rules in the movies because he had the benefit of a LIFETIME of experience to back him up. He is like a caricature of Kirk from the movies, and this extends to all the characters (and the Klingons) to some degree.

Also, from the first movie a quick question - If a black hole is actually a portal through time (and doesn't simply crush people and ships to the size of an atom), why does creating one not send the supernova back to to the past to destroy the galaxy, why does thatjust disappear? (I mean one or the other - either a black hole "sucks things out of existence OR it teleports things through time - but in JJ's it does BOTH at the SAME TIME)
I couldn't agree more , with absolutely everything you've said. And it is precisely what I myself was thinking, "more or less".
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# 29
05-19-2013, 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckner3 View Post
Also, from the first movie a quick question - If a black hole is actually a portal through time (and doesn't simply crush people and ships to the size of an atom), why does creating one not send the supernova back to to the past to destroy the galaxy, why does thatjust disappear? (I mean one or the other - either a black hole "sucks things out of existence OR it teleports things through time - but in JJ's it does BOTH at the SAME TIME)
black holes in JJ movie has that thing I like to call JJ magic touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 683
# 30
05-19-2013, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daan2006 View Post
black holes in JJ movie has that thing I like to call JJ magic touch
Bwahahaahahahaa! Good one! I like that!
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