Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 161
05-23-2013, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirisee View Post
\
I know what Cyrptic did, the only thing that wasn't "right" about what they did was "not" to give fair notice. But as for them fixing a system that was being used in ways they did not intend, they have that right.
I totally agree that the mailbox as it was before was not working as intended, however it was totally necessary for those us seriously working on starbase. What we have is 2 broken systems, one hurting the game experience and one helping, particularity with the former. Had both problems been fixed, there wouldn't be a big problem. But here's my problem:

Mailbox is unlimited time-intensive storage for years

Starbase are introduced; Doff requirements are highly unbalanced with the drop-rate. Players point this out for months with little response and no commitments.

Certain common doffs plummet in exchange price to ~5-6k while others reach 100k. Keep in mind you can buy 1fc with 1 provision costing 75ec when donating. This means that a common doff is valued at 22.5k ec and that would be in-line with the rest of the doff qualities.

Fleets are experiencing doff shortfalls to maintain starbase progress (keep in mind if you aren't completing projects everyday, it will take you well more than a year to finish a starbase). To make up for the shortfall, self sacrificing players have been buying large quanties of doffs to sift though and donate the needed ones. Hundreds to gain tens. Selling the doffs on the exchange is impossible and at a loss anyway, dismissing them is a waste, saving them for future use or having an alt donate them to another fleet is only viable alternative and made possible by the magic mailbox.

The mailbox was nerfed. Without warning. This nerfing will only hurt the doff sifters, as anyone using it for other storage will simply make a mule account or an alt in a fleet of one.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 256
# 162
05-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourxgamer View Post
bad decision (imo) poorly and unfairly implemented (fact)

the lack of outrage is because people are still finding out, they're occupied for the next few days with new content, and/or they don't think their voice matters.

Why does Cryptic keep trying to convince me I shouldn't be playing their games?
I'm not an exploiter for using the mail as designed. You just changed your mind about it several years in and will let certain posters label people if it serves your purpose.

Show some integrity. Apologize for lack of warning, and tell the world we were NOT exploiting anything. You set the parameters.
Fourxgamer, methinks you're spot on about news of this mess not having hit the masses as yet, due to their exploration of all the new content. Given that, I would encourage anyone and everyone who's been intrepid enough to attempt logging into STO (Fed, Kling and Rom alike) to spread the word of this stealth nerf to their friends, fleetmates and group pals. Bring it up in local and zone chats everywhere. Get the word out, so we can have a proper response to this mess.

Also concur that all this back and forth, nerfing and nerfing and nerfing, leaves an incredibly bad taste in one's mouth towards Cryptic.

Ditto regarding all the troglodytes who would erroneously call the likes of you and I 'exploiters'. If anyone is feeling exploited here, it's someone like me, who's spent hundreds of real world dollars on this game, including purchase of the maximum number of slots for bank, inventory, DOFFs and nearly maxxed BOFF slots.

An apology from the Devs would be welcome, but it would be a hollow platitude without a just reversion to the mail system as it has existed for the past three years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0cutus359 View Post
I agree with you. I am tired of the Ninja Nerfs.

I was just about to upgrade to Lifetime sub; but now I am may cancel my Gold sub and just upgrade the important perks I need.

I can't support this heavy handed nerfing.
Locutus359, you're not alone in your hesitance to spend any real world money on Cryptic any longer. Given all the nonsense this company has put its playerbase through, I may very well never spend so much as a penny on 'em ever again.

And I have a very dear friend, who actually got me into STO, who left the game altogether months ago, because of all this stealth nerfing. My pal was a big spender too, having spent hundreds on this game already and always eagerly bought up the latest C-Store ship offering.

Spent the past couple of weeks trying to cajole him back, with details about LOR and new Klingon and Fed content. And then this mail system stealth nerf happened.
"Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man and let history make its own judgments." -Zefram Cochrane
Vice-Admiral Methos Corinthian
methos71

Last edited by methos71; 05-23-2013 at 03:17 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,300
# 163
05-23-2013, 03:22 PM
This just in:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirisee View Post
According to Bran it will not eat your attachments, as you take your attachments back and delete the mail, a new mail with attachment will be delivered, then claim that stuff and so on. (thats as long as the delete bug doesn't interfere with this and mail stay queued until the bug is fixedl).
Hostage mail
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $30 to upgrade my Kamarag ?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,300
# 164
05-23-2013, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirisee View Post
According to Bran it will not eat your attachments, as you take your attachments back and delete the mail, a new mail with attachment will be delivered, then claim that stuff and so on. (thats as long as the delete bug doesn't interfere with this and mail stay queued until the bug is fixedl).
Hostage mail
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $30 to upgrade my Kamarag ?
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 425
# 165
05-23-2013, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootyboots View Post
I totally agree that the mailbox as it was before was not working as intended, however it was totally necessary for those us seriously working on starbase. What we have is 2 broken systems, one hurting the game experience and one helping, particularity with the former. Had both problems been fixed, there wouldn't be a big problem. But here's my problem:

Mailbox is unlimited time-intensive storage for years

Starbase are introduced; Doff requirements are highly unbalanced with the drop-rate. Players point this out for months with little response and no commitments.

Certain common doffs plummet in exchange price to ~5-6k while others reach 100k. Keep in mind you can buy 1fc with 1 provision costing 75ec when donating. This means that a common doff is valued at 22.5k ec and that would be in-line with the rest of the doff qualities.

Fleets are experiencing doff shortfalls to maintain starbase progress (keep in mind if you aren't completing projects everyday, it will take you well more than a year to finish a starbase). To make up for the shortfall, self sacrificing players have been buying large quanties of doffs to sift though and donate the needed ones. Hundreds to gain tens. Selling the doffs on the exchange is impossible and at a loss anyway, dismissing them is a waste, saving them for future use or having an alt donate them to another fleet is only viable alternative and made possible by the magic mailbox.

The mailbox was nerfed. Without warning. This nerfing will only hurt the doff sifters, as anyone using it for other storage will simply make a mule account or an alt in a fleet of one.
Well, i will agree both systems are broken, mail and starbase. The cost in doffs is just insane at higher levels i hear, but in my mind it still doesn't justify using the mail system as a persons personal bank, that was not it's design. I think what we ALL should have been doing a long time ago was keep pushing hard for more storage, and then the "problem" for people using the mail this way would have never happened. I really hope people don't lose their items and doffs, me included since i always have a ton of sale going on the exchange.

Good Luck to you all..
"If everyone used Macs, we'd be working on how to get to Alpha Centauri rather than how to get to Mars."
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 290
# 166
05-23-2013, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icsairguns View Post
Personally I don't think it would be a bad idea at all, and only thing I think that could possibly be address is if it was 100 per toon on the account. way to many people abuse the system for storage. same with the exchange . if people started losing items because they were looking for an exploit or a work around then they will stop doing it

the game charges for extra storage cap. and in the cases that people have maxed out the buyable storage space they can buy, guess what every thing has a cap. learn to deal with it . if you have a 5 lb bag you cant put 10lb of stuff in it. or 5 gallons of gas in a 2 gallon can. come on and grow up and stop the crying about everything.

so if this is a glitch then fine what ever, EXCEPT THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED IN SOME SORT OF TESTING. if it isn't then fine what ever it stops the exploiters.
French-kissing PWE's butt much?
Husker - RugBurn
Zaan - Mel'Kor - Zarek
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 167 Wow...
05-23-2013, 04:09 PM
Well, based on the previous posts and my extensive experience in coding games and playing mmo's, I'd like to make a prediction:

I think that banking items by mail will likely disappear, as was likely Cryptic's intention. Maybe this will decrease server-side lag issues too.
I think people will start using "bank fleets" and "bank alts" to store said items.

The bigger issue, doff storage, doff imbalance and ridiculously high daily doff donation requirements for starbase development will likely result in most hardcore doffers making a LOT of secondary accounts and creating the 3 free players on it, gaining 300 doff slots per account. This will result in a ton of new silver accounts that will never "buy" anything, never subscribe, and only result in longer queue waiting times for other silver, un-subscibed players.

Ideal solution: Cryptic reduces doff requirements for starbase projects from 90 to 50, and possibly opens the donation categories to be less specific (i.e. science or medical instead one type specifically). This would make it more realistic for an average sized fleet to meet the donation needs daily without the need for several of the members keeping 1,000s of doffs in "cold-storage" in their mailboxes.

More likely solution: Cryptic starts hunting down and closing the alternate accounts, trying to force people to buy the doff packs instead; not realizing that the majority of their player base isn't going to spend more than $10-20 a month on a game regardless; and Cryptic refuses to acknowledge that those players need realistic ways to accomplish the same goals substituting play-time for cash investment. (That's not even touching on the imbalance in type of doffs awarded from the packs leaving tons of useless doffs daily.)

The irony is that Cryptic has a beautiful market system in place. If they can make enough "elite" stuff for the "wallet warriors" to buy, they don't need to milk the rest of us as hard. I think this all comes down to the fact that they see mailbox doff storage as a loss of potential doff roster space sales... and the reality is that the few people who do use mail as storage are doing so to counter the ridiculous starbase doff donation requirements. Most of those people are smart enough to find an alternate means to accomplish the same storage requirements, until the underlying issue is addressed.

** The above is a statement of opinion, not presented as fact. This is not intended as instructions on how to circumvent or exploit anything in-game. The example above is just 1 idea of how players might respond to this situation. **

Now the reason I won't be playing for the next week (or until I see a patch note addressing it) is, what about returned exchange sales? I post 40 exchange offers daily on 10 or more characters. If half of the offers on each expire and are returned, i'll lose hundreds of items to the void!! Doffing is what I do with about 75% of my play time, and I play between 6 and 18 hours daily. If I can't sell doffs without fear of losing them when the sales expire... then there's not much for me to do until the issue is fixed.


Thx,

Q

Disclaimer: I am a subscribed customer for almost 1 year. I have played STO for about 18 months. I have unlocked all 400 doff roster spots on my primary character, and an additional 50-100 (for a total of 150-200 slots each) on more than 10 other characters; giving me a total of around 3,000 doff roster spots. Even with this, I have been using the mailbox to store 1,000's of white (common) doffs for fleet donations as well as blue and purple (rare/very rare) doffs for exchange sales. The loss of this means of doff storage will hinder my ability to sell doffs and donate enough to keep fleet projects running.

With around 5000+ zen spent on doff space and a combined roster of around 3,000 slots account-wide, I should not need to spend any more toward unlocking more doff roster space. You may feel that using the mailbox as doff storage was "exploiting the system for unintended uses", and you might even have a point... but the underlying issue is, doff storage limits need attention, and/or donation quantities need to be adjusted/rescaled. When smart people find a problem, they look for a solution that they can implement themselves (Instead of petitioning dev. teams in vain), and it seems that many of us found the same solution. Now they've "fixed" the problem with no notice, and yet failed to address the underlying issue.

Regardless, the issue needs to be addressed about returning exchange sales. There is no reason why items that expire on the exchange shouldn't be returned to me, and fear that they will not be is preventing me from playing.

Last edited by wolffman78; 05-23-2013 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,256
# 168
05-23-2013, 04:16 PM
Dammit. I had over a thousand doffs stored this way. With a limit of 40 Exchange sales at a time, I won't be able to get rid of them fast enough. Why do this? Isn't there better stuff to fix?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,052
# 169
05-23-2013, 04:34 PM
So, to clarify:
The 100 attachment limit is per account, not character?
Each character can post 40 items on the Exchange at a time?
Each Silver account gets 3 characters for free?
Each account could potentially receive up to 120 items returned from the Exchange?

Does this look like a good reason to buy more character slots, or create "bank accounts" with 3 characters each? I hate to say it, but the basic quality of life stuff is why I went right back to playing STO instead of Neverwinter... and why I will likely let the Lifetime Subscription Sale pass right on by again.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,256
# 170
05-23-2013, 05:16 PM
Where am I supposed to store the thousand surplus doffs I have on all my toons? I've already bought 10 of the +100 storage things, but all those blue-quality warp theorists have to go somewhere. Can't donate them to starbases, can only sell so many at a time, and I'll be damned if I'm spending money on the highway-robbery rates on the doff upgrinder. Even near-useless doffs are still too valuable to simply throw away, and thats how i pay for everything I do in this game anyways, so I'm not gonna cripple myself here.

Its like they realized 'oh crap we were being too generous with our F2P model!' so they reduced how much dil is available while trying every trick they could think of to make it more important to have. Stop it! I'm not spending MORE money.

/Rant, if not over, then at least on hold. Grrrrrr.
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