Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 21
06-02-2013, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandoknight89 View Post
I think the magnitude should be tweaked a bit still, though... down to 10 km assuming no ranks in Sensors or Stealth on the respective side and similar Aux levels, for a Klingon cloak.

On the one hand, EPtA currently fully counters cloaking, particularly since it can be run continuously. On the other hand, it also effectively locks out EPtW, which got a serious buff due to applying its damage bonus for its full duration. (EPtS still grants a major shield resistance buff, so I wouldn't recommend using an EPtW/A combo over an EPtS/A one.) So, Cruisers and Eng-heavy Science Vessels (which have the space for EPtA as well as abilities to get more utility off of it than just stealth sight) will counter cloaked vessels for now, while Escorts will have to decide whether they want to counter cloaked vessels or keep the EPtS resistance buff up.

And at the end of the day... I think I'm OK with that. It makes Battle Cloak a tactical choice with serious consequences, not just three seconds of extreme vulnerability followed by an indefinite amount of near invulnerability and five to ten seconds (or so) of a fairly major damage buff. If there's a paranoid Cruiser or Science Vessel flying around scanning for cloaked ships, good for them, it gives them something useful to do while also improving their Sci powers and Aux-based heals by virtue of the EPtA power bonus, but forces them to trade off against EPtW or EPtS. Aux2Batt cruisers break this idea, though, but I think that's more of an issue with the power of the Technician doff than it is with EPtA.
Actually, what it does, is make Cloak a matter of going from short periods where you have shields and can fire your weapons vs. long periods where you're unarmed and defenseless except for speed.

Before, you were very vulnerable in a BoP if you actually decloaked and made your run-making a Decloak Alpha was a matter of careful timing and if it failed (in any way at all) your lifespan wouldn't last the length of the cooldown. NOW, being cloaked is WORSE-because you're largely disarmed, shieldless, and unable to use or deploy science abilities on anything but a B'rel-which is a 25 dollar ship that has a single trick that doesn't work most of the time BEFORE EPTA was broken in this patch.

Take, for instance, the bone-stock Hegh'ta, the most common Battlecloaker in the game. This ship can't use anything while cloaked, has 3 tac consoles and 6 weapons TOTAL, with a shield mod in the .8 range and less hull than your Yellowstone shuttle.

Thanks to the broken EPtA, the owner/user of this ship gets to choose between dying fast by running without cloak, or dying even FASTER because everyone on the other side is pounding EPtA (or only a few-your cruisers for example. HOW FAST can you slice through twenty-something thousand hull with no shielding? you can do THAT on a MIRANDA.)

flat fact now: The Devs (maybe inadvertently as they claim, maybe deliberately) gave the Feds a HUGE advantage-not only tougher ships with more weapons and more weapons power, but the ability to negate the whole reason KDF ships were "balanced" with thinner hulls and weaker shields, and the entire justification used for not fixing the pivot point on Raptor class vessels or giving the KDF a 5 console escort-class.

see, you all got an "I Win" button that negates an ENTIRE CLASS of ships-not one design, the ENTIRE CLASS in PvP.

Which is why I don't believe the Devs when they say they're going to fix it.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 22
06-02-2013, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandoknight89 View Post
I think the magnitude should be tweaked a bit still, though... down to 10 km assuming no ranks in Sensors or Stealth on the respective side and similar Aux levels, for a Klingon cloak.

On the one hand, EPtA currently fully counters cloaking, particularly since it can be run continuously. On the other hand, it also effectively locks out EPtW, which got a serious buff due to applying its damage bonus for its full duration. (EPtS still grants a major shield resistance buff, so I wouldn't recommend using an EPtW/A combo over an EPtS/A one.) So, Cruisers and Eng-heavy Science Vessels (which have the space for EPtA as well as abilities to get more utility off of it than just stealth sight) will counter cloaked vessels for now, while Escorts will have to decide whether they want to counter cloaked vessels or keep the EPtS resistance buff up.

And at the end of the day... I think I'm OK with that. It makes Battle Cloak a tactical choice with serious consequences, not just three seconds of extreme vulnerability followed by an indefinite amount of near invulnerability and five to ten seconds (or so) of a fairly major damage buff. If there's a paranoid Cruiser or Science Vessel flying around scanning for cloaked ships, good for them, it gives them something useful to do while also improving their Sci powers and Aux-based heals by virtue of the EPtA power bonus, but forces them to trade off against EPtW or EPtS. Aux2Batt cruisers break this idea, though, but I think that's more of an issue with the power of the Technician doff than it is with EPtA.
The cloak already had its fair share of vulnerabilities, when facing competent PvPers. Not to mention that most of the ships that have battlecloaks/enhanced battlecloaks sacrifice something in order to have them. . .it's unfair to just nerf the hell out of the advantage given by the cloak.

The damage buff is not 'fairly major'. I'd classify it as 'moderate'. It's the equivalent of a green Mk X tac console (15% boost) for the length of time it takes to deliver an alphastrike. It's actually less than the boost you get from activating Attack Pattern Omega 2 and 3. The Attack Pattern Alpha damage boost is what's major (30% damage boost and bonuses to crit chance and severity).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 23
06-03-2013, 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Actually, what it does, is make Cloak a matter of going from short periods where you have shields and can fire your weapons vs. long periods where you're unarmed and defenseless except for speed.

Before, you were very vulnerable in a BoP if you actually decloaked and made your run-making a Decloak Alpha was a matter of careful timing and if it failed (in any way at all) your lifespan wouldn't last the length of the cooldown. NOW, being cloaked is WORSE-because you're largely disarmed, shieldless, and unable to use or deploy science abilities on anything but a B'rel-which is a 25 dollar ship that has a single trick that doesn't work most of the time BEFORE EPTA was broken in this patch.

Take, for instance, the bone-stock Hegh'ta, the most common Battlecloaker in the game. This ship can't use anything while cloaked, has 3 tac consoles and 6 weapons TOTAL, with a shield mod in the .8 range and less hull than your Yellowstone shuttle.

Thanks to the broken EPtA, the owner/user of this ship gets to choose between dying fast by running without cloak, or dying even FASTER because everyone on the other side is pounding EPtA (or only a few-your cruisers for example. HOW FAST can you slice through twenty-something thousand hull with no shielding? you can do THAT on a MIRANDA.)

flat fact now: The Devs (maybe inadvertently as they claim, maybe deliberately) gave the Feds a HUGE advantage-not only tougher ships with more weapons and more weapons power, but the ability to negate the whole reason KDF ships were "balanced" with thinner hulls and weaker shields, and the entire justification used for not fixing the pivot point on Raptor class vessels or giving the KDF a 5 console escort-class.

see, you all got an "I Win" button that negates an ENTIRE CLASS of ships-not one design, the ENTIRE CLASS in PvP.

Which is why I don't believe the Devs when they say they're going to fix it.
Wanted to make a slight clarification: The Hegh'ta (and other battlecloaking BoPs) can't use engineering or science abilities while cloaked. They can, however, use tactical abilities and captain skills. Hence, our being able to buff for a decloak alpha while cloaked (albeit with a lot of friggin noise made in the process, which is yet another way of being able to tell whether there's someone cloaked nearby and getting ready to attack).
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 24
06-03-2013, 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timezarg View Post
Wanted to make a slight clarification: The Hegh'ta (and other battlecloaking BoPs) can't use engineering or science abilities while cloaked. They can, however, use tactical abilities and captain skills. Hence, our being able to buff for a decloak alpha while cloaked (albeit with a lot of friggin noise made in the process, which is yet another way of being able to tell whether there's someone cloaked nearby and getting ready to attack).
see, you're talking about TACTICS-something most Fed players don't use-they use POWERS instead. (the ones that USE tactics are DAMNED hard to beat.)
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9
# 25
06-03-2013, 01:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by newromulan1 View Post
So this exploit is completely unfair - oh and that B'rel perfect cloak was only used by a very very few people as you had to buy a bunch of Romualn Boffs that were 80K fleet marks at least + dilithium - perhaps a dozen people did it - vs - every ship in PvP now using this cheat/exploit
You think only a dozen people use it ??
I don't pvp much, don't use cloak but i got the tactical romulan doffs, +2% ctrh, +5% crtd per bo. thats 3 on my fleet Defiant for PVE !! (and im not the only1 in my fleet that use the doff's and don't use cloak/play pvp)
So pvp'ers don't use the 6% crth & 15% crtd from 3 tactical doffs, sorry but don't i know your wrong, if pve'ers use it i know pvp'ers must use it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 26
06-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1970 View Post
You think only a dozen people use it ??
I don't pvp much, don't use cloak but i got the tactical romulan doffs, +2% ctrh, +5% crtd per bo. thats 3 on my fleet Defiant for PVE !! (and im not the only1 in my fleet that use the doff's and don't use cloak/play pvp)
So pvp'ers don't use the 6% crth & 15% crtd from 3 tactical doffs, sorry but don't i know your wrong, if pve'ers use it i know pvp'ers must use it.
Not necessarily. See, most experienced/skilled PvPers tend to have a sense of class. They generally know when something's an exploit and is ultimately leading to an unfair matchup. Only the tactless trolls and exploiters use these things on a regular basis. There's no fun in just throwing around exploits to beat your enemy easily.

Whereas PvEers are actually the ones that seem to take exploits that can be used against PvE opponents/targets and overuse the crap out of them. Take the whole business with tricobalt mines, for example. People were using those to kill STF gates before taking out the transformers, for cryin' out loud. That's what really brought attention to the problem, not people using it in PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 27
06-03-2013, 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1970 View Post
You think only a dozen people use it ??
I don't pvp much, don't use cloak but i got the tactical romulan doffs, +2% ctrh, +5% crtd per bo. thats 3 on my fleet Defiant for PVE !! (and im not the only1 in my fleet that use the doff's and don't use cloak/play pvp)
So pvp'ers don't use the 6% crth & 15% crtd from 3 tactical doffs, sorry but don't i know your wrong, if pve'ers use it i know pvp'ers must use it.
You're making a couple of bad assumptions here:
1. that because you use it in PvE, PvP'ers MUST use it. This is not so-there are other Duty officers that are MORE valuable in PvP than in PvE-Francis Marion Dulmer comes to mind, as do the SNB doffs, sensor scan doffs, and subsystem targeting doffs.

2. that PvP'ers treat each other like they treat the bot/AI systems. admittedly, there are douchebags that do this-but they're Douchebags, and eventually everyone KNOWS they're Douchebags, and won't play in a match they show up for-gettng a rep as a douche can get you kicked from a good fleet (means no access to neat Fleet stuff), get you targeted by the entire map for every dirty trick they know (and PvP'ers who've been at it a while know a LOT of dirty tricks), will get you reported, silenced, harassed, etc. etc. etc.

Why do you think there's no "Naming and shaming" on the Cryptic boards? hmmm?

but it DOES come up in fleet chats, on Fleet websites, in intrafleet and interfleet conversations, etc. etc. etc. and sometimes spills out in here in spite of the efforts made both by Cryptic, and the community, to avoid it.

PvP is NOT PvE, there are standards inside the community, though nobody's really coded any of them into a solid structure, one of those is that it's not a match if one side or the other has a ridiculously powerful advantage that can't be countered by skill, cleverness, or knowing how to use your gear. Thus, the RomDoff cloaking advantage was well-advertised before it was fixed on the PvP boards, and everyone knew it was an exploit, likewise with the math-error on Emergency Power to Aux that lets you see a Bird of Prey under cloak at 30km and engage them at 10K while their shields are down and they can't shoot back.

But...it really IS only when an exploit does something to the PvE that the Devs tend to take notice and fix it. The T4 rep passive was letting teams pug "No Win" on Elite to completion at a rate of having that completion announced about four times a day, the Tric Mine exploit wasn't addressed until people were popping Gates in STF's without taking down the transformers, popping cubes in CSE without hitting the nanites first, ie facerolling content and finishing 15 minute STF's in 2.

why?

Because PvE is important to the Developers, PvP...is not.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,414
# 28
06-03-2013, 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
That part isn't true... Running EPTA on your cloaker will NOT keep you cloaked. It will just reveal everyone else for you. lol
I ment the rest if my team can't see them unless they have epta as well.

Sure I can shoot the cloaked guy, but I'm a sci ship speced for finding them, not for damaging them when found. I haven't really found a sci build that's great at both.


Which is its own separate issue, my point is, if a guy is fully specing to be a sub hunter he won't be worth much in any other department if epta goes back to only 1%

I'm thinking maybe adding more like 5-15% depending on the tank of epta that's taken.

This way you'll have between what a field of vision 5-20km against a basic before other factors cloak? I don't know the math off hand so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 29
06-03-2013, 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
I ment the rest if my team can't see them unless they have epta as well.

Sure I can shoot the cloaked guy, but I'm a sci ship speced for finding them, not for damaging them when found. I haven't really found a sci build that's great at both.


Which is its own separate issue, my point is, if a guy is fully specing to be a sub hunter he won't be worth much in any other department if epta goes back to only 1%

I'm thinking maybe adding more like 5-15% depending on the tank of epta that's taken.

This way you'll have between what a field of vision 5-20km against a basic before other factors cloak? I don't know the math off hand so...
5-15% is viable-though I'd personally prefer a range of 1-5% instead, giving the EPTA at ensign level a short-range, Lt. level range out to tractor-beams, and LTC level range out to raw engagement (aka 10K) so a 3/5/10 is reasonable-reason being, if you've got your sound set up right, at 10K you can hear a cloaker buffing (or you could, before EPtA made that redundant) and ready your buffs/tractor-beams. (i.e. the power doesn't substitute for skill, it enhances it and gives you the ability to shoot first at a target with no shields-which even a Sci ship SHOULD be able to get a kill doing...)

THAT would put it back into the realm of "Skill" instead of "Gear".

(for those that don't know how to detect a cloaker without magic-scaled EPtA, you turn off the music and ambient noise on your sound control-that leaves you the 'sound effects' active without a bunch of ear-deadening static. Buffs, and decloaks, make certain specific sounds...in a way, it really IS like hunting subs. the technique was developed in KvK, a few fed players know it, now everyone who can read should be able to catch me on the approach, even without Aux powers...)
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 136
# 30
06-03-2013, 11:52 AM
Vape!!!!!!!
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