Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 11
06-05-2013, 07:56 AM
Bluegeek,

Im going to address this as directly, and most respectfully as i can..
Please pardon my blunt replies


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I'll put in my two cents: No.

Why? And "You just want what you want" is not a valid answer.


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It's kind of funny how people think they can convince Cryptic to implement what they want by describing it as a way for Cryptic to make more money.
I am offering ways for the game to make money on the principle that if it does, it will (hopefully) Hire more coders, which will fix the CRAP in the game that has been here for YEARS. this system is NOT WORKING.

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And then there are other people who accuse Cryptic of going for greedy cash-grabs ... of which the fleet system is already accused of being.
Probably because its true. I have to admit, ad a dev for two others games, and a Key tester for another (one might i add that creates 80% of the games revisions) Have even considered this. Granted, it may not me true, but im willing to bet it is on account
of the massive prices.

Lets assume its not, however on the flip side. and the system is not really generating money when it comes to Star-bases. Why not revise it to make it make money, and work better? the truth is

lots of people complain about leveling time
lots of people complain about resource cost
lots of people are using others to make massive amounts of EC via their Star-base
Which is leading to contribution of inflation.
Most importantly, The fleet star base serves no purpose other then to
store Npc Vendors.

These are good merrits to start investigating at the very least minor alterations.

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Let Cryptic worry about how to generate revenue. They correctly deduce that they can make more money by attracting more players to play and giving them an incentive to keep playing.
And wait another 3 years for a ROL Equivalent patch.

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This proposed scheme only rewards people who have money to burn and does nothing to either attract or retain players.
Actually it does not.

The mining system would generate dilithium to the point where it can pay for
star-base upgrades (would need to add a mechanic for this, For example
under contribute for the dilithium only box, you'd Add "Storage" or something
where you can donate from the mining storage for star-base projects.

Its a one time fee, that can be saved up for. We have ever been talking on ts
about the idea of a fleet-related Zen deposit. So that the leaders can use it for
the fleet's needs. Players could take their dilithium and convert it for the mining
purpose, There is a possible and easy solution. You just need to be open
minded and so no easy to jump "NO!" with out a valid reason
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 12
06-05-2013, 07:57 AM
Quote:
It wouldn't prevent Tier 5 megafleets from existing.
Now you are catching on...


What you need to understand is the mining system can be used to upgrade other things.

The income is guaranteed just not its value.

What you would do is make the quests equal a %, and give each
size (small, medium etc) a value (Posted in OP).

Lets take mines for example, that give 375,000 Dilithium.

10 out of 10 misisons = 100% of that at the end of the month
9/10 of that is 90%
8/10 is 80%

And so on. This would then deposited in a "storage"

Now the star-base intregration comes in.

Under all Dilithium parts in the star base (active Projects where you contribute) (including the upkeep tab to pay the monthly rate)
you would allow that stored Dilithium to be used to pay for any star-base project.

under the "Contribute" button is a "Storage" you would then just click that
and donate like you do contribute button. Simple mechanic.

Last edited by uhmari; 06-05-2013 at 08:03 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
# 13
06-05-2013, 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
This proposed scheme only rewards people who have money to burn and does nothing to either attract or retain players.
Not true. Granted that the proposed system would have you pay zen to make a fleet, but just because it would now cost zen doesn't mean people would pay money. With the Zen to Dilithuim exchange as long as you work hard you can make a fleet for free.

Now, as for rewarding the players that burn money, the only way it rewards them it by allowing them to make a tier 5 fleet faster. But it also rewards other players because they can all contribute to this to help build their fleets starbase faster if they choose. However, the point your missing there is that again, with the Dilithuim/Zen exchange, even if you are a strictly free to play player, you can still help out with your fleet and get the same rewards, without ever having to pay cash if you choose to do so or are unable to do so.

Now as far as attract players or retaining players, I can almost guarantee it will work. If you don't believe me, go Google World of Ranks or any game similar to it that have a similar system and are currently making millions off of it. This system works, and it works stupid well, so don't say that it does nothing, because it does and we've all seen it in one form or another.


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And then there are other people who accuse Cryptic of going for greedy cash-grabs ... of which the fleet system is already accused of being.
The fleet current system is exactly that. There are fleets that are making billions of EC a day by doing absolutely nothing besides being a Tier 5 Fleet and existing for the sole purpose of charging people EC to join their fleet to buy their Tier 5 ships, lazy people who have no interest in staying in the fleet or actively contributing to the fleet that are staying in outside of their trip to the local Tier 5 Fleet to get your ships.

IN FACT the current system rewards players with money to burn even more that the proposed system. I wonder how many players are out there currently who made a fleet, then used cash to basically insta build their fleet to 5, because besides the resources gained from scanning, everything else can be gained by buying it with cash, and then use it to make billions of EC, completely upsetting the game economy and inflating the prices of everything on the exchange to such a high price that only players who have done something like that can even hope to buy some of the better items on the exchange.
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 14
06-05-2013, 08:10 AM
Quote:
What it would do is to completely kill the entire fleet advancement system, if not fleets themselves. Upkeep costs, especially fueled by voluntary contributions, are a bad idea.
Im curious to know two things about this part, But Fleet advancement do you mean
going from tier 1 to tier 5?

If this is the case your are vastly mistaken, you are looking at a possible way to upgrade the starbases with a free large source of dilithium. imagine you are tier
1 and get 375,000 Dilithium, how many projects would that help????

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If anything, it would encourage fleets to grow as big as they can possibly get and kick out anybody who isn't actively contributing.
Because paying 4 days of dilithium mining a month is hard first of all?
Second, growing to 500 will cost you more, then having a smaller fleet.
This actually Clearly discouraging large fleets from existing (as it was stated it
destroys "SPAM" invites, and causes fleets to be more about value.

Clans/fleets etc (what ever you call them are the foundational point of a game.
Much like a house is to a society. If you have this system working well, the games
community will thrive, That is the single and only factor to people "Saying in a game"

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It wouldn't prevent Tier 5 megafleets from existing.
Yes Excatly..

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There would be far less incentive to try to advance your fleet, since you could effectively lose all of the benefits unless you met the upkeep costs.
Advance it with quality, not spam

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And paying Zen to accelerate fleet advancement would also be a no-win situation: You could end up with a Tier 5 starbase and lose the benefit of it when you ran out of Dilithium/cash.
What benefit?

My small fleet would certainly go under with this system, as would a lot of other small fleets.

Your fleet, Of less then 150 would pay very little. 1 days worth of dilithium a month
is that to much to ask for, As a counter point to massively fueling a star-base
millions of dilithium as you level???
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 15
06-05-2013, 08:21 AM
The fact that either of you (if in fact there are two different people and not the same person just parroting himself to try and create some manner of credibility) think that charging ridiculous amounts of Zen to simply maintain a fleet, let alone use or advance said fleet, will magically increase fleet numbers is completely absurd.

How does saddling fleets with additional resource sinks, and then directly charging them for a mechanic that only partially mitigates said sinks, improve fleet progression?

How does forcing fleet members into the salt mines (literally) to try and keep their head above water from the new charges you're piling on improve anything?

At best you'd see a massive dissolving of fleets. At worst, you'd see droves of people leaving the game (and rightly so) because they disapprove of being even more nickeled and dimed for being in a fleet.
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 16
06-05-2013, 08:42 AM
When it says
Raise fleet cap?

No one said magical Numbers.

The Dilithium is just to encourage spending, as well
as add a new system that will help leveling fleets faster
to encourage more advancement for them


Quote:
How does saddling fleets with additional resource sinks, and then directly charging them for a mechanic that only partially mitigates said sinks, improve fleet progression?
Quote:
By players all being "contributors" to the equation rather then 10-20 people doing it, Improves the fleet
progression rate greatly.
Further its progressed with the dilithium granted to the fleet, to help at the discression of the leader
progress high-dilithium cost projects.

Quote:
How does forcing fleet members into the salt mines (literally) to try and keep their head above water from the new charges you're piling on improve anything?
Do you not read?
Seriously? Did you not see the part about earning up to 10,000 refined dilithium a day
for doing the mine quests?

At best you'd see a massive dissolving of fleets. At worst, you'd see droves of people leaving the game (and rightly so) because they disapprove of being even more nickeled and dimed for being in a fleet.



This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 06-05-2013 at 09:09 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 17
06-05-2013, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post

I am offering ways for the game to make money on the principle that if it does, it will (hopefully) Hire more coders, which will fix the CRAP in the game that has been here for YEARS. this system is NOT WORKING.
You want resources devoted to fixing bugs? Buy PWE stock and form a stockholder block big enough to demand PWE gets in Cryptic's case about it. That's it. I would suggest you buy a few hundred boxes per month but even then that does not guarantee the extra resources would go toward fixing anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 18
06-05-2013, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post
The Dilithium is just to encourage spending, as well
as add a new system that will help leveling fleets faster
to encourage more advancement for them
A mandatory expense encourages nothing. It forces.

But the magnitude of problems your "solution" creates is several times greater than the ones you claim it will fix. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't actually fix said problems, but that's neither here nor there...


Forcing each and every character in a fleet to grind endlessly just to keep the fleet above water helps nobody.



Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post
Further its progressed with the dilithium granted to the fleet, to help at the discression of the leader
progress high-dilithium cost projects.
Considering your entire setup generates far less dilithium than it creates, you've just saddled every single fleet member with a built in sink they fundamentally can't overcome without outside income.

You're effectively creating a situation where a person has to pay to stay at a job. Nobody is going to do that in a game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by uhmari View Post
Do you not read?
Seriously? Did you not see the part about earning up to 10,000 refined dilithium a day
for doing the mine quests?
Do you not understand that people don't play STO to work in a mine? This isn't EVE. Players don't load up STO saying "gee, I wish I could spend my free time mining rocks today!".


This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 06-05-2013 at 09:16 AM.
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 858
# 19
06-05-2013, 09:28 AM
A mandatory expense encourages nothing. It forces.

But the magnitude of problems your "solution" creates is several times greater than the ones you claim it will fix. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't actually fix said problems, but that's neither here nor there...


Forcing each and every character in a fleet to grind endlessly just to keep the fleet above water helps nobody..


You dont have to buy the mines, Dont you get that?
You have the option of the players donating their amount (1 to 4 days worth of dilithium a month) Its not to much to ask.

You can set the system up so that it warns them and the fleet leader. There is lots of ways to do it (thats to be considered)

but the mines are OPTIONAL


The only required Pay of zen is to "create" The fleet, and to be honest

68,000 fleet sin the game, It needs it.


Considering your entire setup generates far less dilithium than it creates, you've just saddled every single fleet member with a built in sink they fundamentally can't overcome without outside income.


BS.. Straight up. Work for 4 days (tops) and stop being lazy.

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Do you not understand that people don't play STO to work in a mine? This isn't EVE. Players don't load up STO saying "gee, I wish I could spend my free time mining rocks today!".
Thats great and they dont have to.

10 quests a day (which is what most fleets will probably have (a small mine) is not a lot.
its 10 people doing 1 quest that takes 2-3 minutes. It can be as simple as actually going out and earn dilithium for themselves.

Its not a hard system to understand, You Benefit personally from earning dilithium to do those quests. You further help the fleet by doing those quests, its a win win situation.

Again, USE YOUR HEAD and THINK
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,004
# 20
06-05-2013, 09:29 AM
1. Thread moved to the Fleet Holdings forum because it seems to be a more appropriate place for it.

2. No more flaming and trolling. I will be forced to end this thread if it continues.

3.
Quote:
Why? And "You just want what you want" is not a valid answer.
Actually, no. I don't have to justify my personal opinion, which I am free to share. It remains "No" until I am convinced otherwise.

So far I am convinced that the system being talking about could be harmful to my very small fleet and I am skeptical that I could afford the upkeep. So, my opinion is still "no".

I haven't seen - or missed seeing - an explanation of what happens when you can't meet the upkeep costs. Ease my mind on that score and I might be swayed to accept at least parts of this idea.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
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