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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,777
# 11
06-07-2013, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
It not bound to Federation Citizens, just Starfleet personal.

In fact as a Federation Citizen you can violate it all she/he/it? want and Starfleet is not even allowed to remove you by force.
There is one word for this.

Maquis
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 155
# 12
06-07-2013, 02:08 PM
My interpretation of it is as I stated in my original post is it is to prevent interference in a pre warp culture once that culture gains warp travel, through their own means as I understand it, the situation becomes a diplomatic one with a very similar set of rules as the prime directive but because it is in the political arena (I hate politics to be honest) those rules can be worked around a lot easier than can the prime directive.

Worf killing Duras and getting reprimanded under the prime directive was, imho, an easy out for the writer of the show because people watching the episode knew what the prime directive was and that explained it easier than another 5 min explanation of exactly the same thing.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,627
# 13
06-07-2013, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuxidemus001 View Post
There is one word for this.

Maquis
Not really, the Federation acknowledged by treaty such worlds were part of the Cardassian Union and no longer considered part of the United Federation of Planets.

Starfleet was ordered to evacuate the colonits, you are talking about Dorvan V, Picard only attempted to do so by force after they refused and they were allowed to remain, both the Council and Central Command allowed Federation colonists to remain in those worlds at start.

Also you can lay the blame of that in Admiral Nechayev, not Picard that objected and the question was never brought up, again I point out the writers inconsistency with the Prime Directive.
Romulans ...
You start your career off as a simple farmer... then you launch yourself into a galaxy filled with intrigue, power plays, and high stakes games of interstellar conflict, as your career careens upwards onto your final destination ... a level capped Dilithium and Fleet Mark Farmer!

Last edited by f2pdrakron; 06-07-2013 at 02:34 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,806
# 14
06-07-2013, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
The prime directive forbids interfering in other cultures... Not just pre-warp cultures.
^^
That was re-conned with TNG - in TOS it was specifically stated to only apply to pre-warp cultures that had no knowledge of spaceflight or of other intelligent life in space.

Also, it wasn't automatically applied everywhere - there was usually a survey done, and a recommendation was made to Star Fleet as to whether the Prime Directive should be invoked for said world.
^^
(My canon source for all the above: The TOS episode - "A Private Little War"

IMO - the TNG era shows took the Prime Directive to a ridiculous level as in effect, if we were to apply the TNG version, the Federation should not be trading or interacting with ANY planet that is not already a member world - and if you take the TNG Prime Directive as that series interpreted it, it would be impossible for ANY world to apply - as the Federation would now be interfering (especially if something surfaced to make the Federation reject the application, OR the planet decided to terminate the application process; which almost happened with Bajor a couple of times during the DS9 series.

Thus the ONLY interpretation of the Prime Directive that makes an sort of sense and allows the Federation to operate as it does is the original TOS interpretation. (Again, IMO)
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 15
06-07-2013, 02:45 PM
The Prime Directive is actually two directives. The non-interference directive for pre-warp societies comes from The Original Series. It's a moral issue that the Federation wants to allow each culture to develop in its own unique way. It's an embodiment of the ideals of the Federation and of the Vulcan IDIC.

This Prime Directive is not an absolute prohibition of action of regards to pre-warp civilisations. As we have seen it's in place to make Captains and other Starfleet Officers think through and question any action they may take. I do agree that some writers taking the absolutely prohibition interpretation is silly. The best example of that I've seen is the TNG Episode "Penpals". Data was at fault for talking with the girl. The I find Picard's initial refusal to help save the civilisation to be silly. It seems so unlike Picard.

The second directive non-interference directive is political. The Federation doesn't want a Starfleet Officer to take an action to drag the Federation into an unwanted conflict. That political choice is the purview of the Federation Council and President.

The premier example of the second political non-interference directive is the Klingon Civil War from ST:TNG. The Federation didn't want to get sucked into the conflict. The Federation/Picard clearly wanted Gowron forces to win, but they would not/could not take any direct action in the conflict. As we find out that doesn't prevent them from taking indirect actions in uncovering and stopping the Romulan's's aid to the forces of the House of Duras.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 179
# 16
06-07-2013, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by methodus2063 View Post
but to sit back and let disasters that aren't being caused by the civilization that you can prevent is just moral cowardice, no matter how you justify it. As Kirk once pointed out to spock, It's better to change these people, then to let them die.
The problem with this is that even with all the technology and knowledge of the Federation behind them, a Starfleet Captain cannot solve every problem, plus when dealing with these problems the consequences of aiding them aren't always obvious.

For instance in TNG's 'The Masterpiece Society' the very fact that the colony was helped to save it caused harm to the colony by triggering their curiosity about life other than on their world. As a tightly-controlled colony it needs all the manpower it has and them leaving harms the colony.

There's also the case of preventing hubris, for instance in 'Homeward' where one observer decides the fate of an entire race by saving them as their planet's atmosphere dissolves. During his efforts one of the people he saves finds out that they are on the Enterprise and both the culture shock as well as being unable to fulfill his role in society (as the Lorekeeper/Truthteller) causes him to commit suicide. Which the entire race could have done as well simply from the culture shock alone.

Finally some societies simply aren't ready for the ramifications that come with intergalactic travel, such as the Malcorians in 'First Contact' who held the belief of being 'superior in the galaxy.' A belief that had them mistrust the Enterprise as representatives of the Federation and who some people actively went about sabotaging the efforts of First Contact out of cultural fear. (The Malcorian who forced Riker to shoot him, not knowing about Phaseer Stun settings.)

Ultimately it's also partly about choosing the lesser of two evils and absolving a Captain of fault should they choose to uphold the Prime Directive instead of trying to save a species and fail while doing so, often because of your own actions.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 263
# 17
06-07-2013, 04:28 PM
Sisko is a direct example of violating the prime directive, though not his fault he became a religious figure to the bajorans and as a result they would act on his orders or advice (such as when he said bajor shouldn't join the federation before the dominion war) despite the fact this saved them form being the first casualty of the war he used his connection as the emissary to influence their planet.

So the prime directive is more of a dont interfere in internal planet development, weather that be via technology political or religiously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordfuzun View Post
The premier example of the second political non-interference directive is the Klingon Civil War from ST:TNG. The Federation didn't want to get sucked into the conflict. The Federation/Picard clearly wanted Gowron forces to win, but they would not/could not take any direct action in the conflict. As we find out that doesn't prevent them from taking indirect actions in uncovering and stopping the Romulan's's aid to the forces of the House of Duras.
this is where the directive get tricky, as starfleet does its best to uphold its directive they also know things like this could destabilize the entire quadrant.
But like real military's if you are given a order such as pull back knowing that you will leave men who could die and you ignore it and end up saving them, most militrays dont punish you for such actions sort of a ends justify the means

Last edited by nickcastleton; 06-07-2013 at 04:43 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 59
# 18
06-07-2013, 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yargomesh View Post
The problem with this is that even with all the technology and knowledge of the Federation behind them, a Starfleet Captain cannot solve every problem, plus when dealing with these problems the consequences of aiding them aren't always obvious.
But it's a captains job to make the best decision based on all the facts available, and then live with the consequences. Not all actions are going to result in a good out come, nor can some one see into the future. But that is where good judgment, a sense of morality to do the right thing, and above all, respect for others really comes into play.

Any captain who sits there while others suffer with out lifting a finger is a coward, and frankly unfit to command a ship, in which any action will affect not just them selves, but future generations. Even avoiding direct involvement in other cultures will not guarantee that you can avoid hurt a culture. Simply loosing a section of hull that drifts into another civilizations world could have unforeseen consequences, but that doesn't mean that Star fleet should just withdraw back into their own space to avoid consequence.

Instead, a captain must rely on his training, and abilities to make the right decisions, which sometimes might include not doing anything. A captain should try to redirect an asteroid bound to hit the planet, but not stop a side from using a nuke in a war against them selves. There are differences to consider.

Also keep in mind, that in most cases, anything is better then total annihilation. And if that means that the federation has to deal with the ramifications, most people would still do it. Does that mean that the Captain should just do as he feels? not always, and informing Star Fleet should be high priority to at least get guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yargomesh View Post
For instance in TNG's 'The Masterpiece Society' the very fact that the colony was helped to save it caused harm to the colony by triggering their curiosity about life other than on their world. As a tightly-controlled colony it needs all the manpower it has and them leaving harms the colony.

There's also the case of preventing hubris, for instance in 'Homeward' where one observer decides the fate of an entire race by saving them as their planet's atmosphere dissolves. During his efforts one of the people he saves finds out that they are on the Enterprise and both the culture shock as well as being unable to fulfill his role in society (as the Lorekeeper/Truthteller) causes him to commit suicide. Which the entire race could have done as well simply from the culture shock alone.

Finally some societies simply aren't ready for the ramifications that come with intergalactic travel, such as the Malcorians in 'First Contact' who held the belief of being 'superior in the galaxy.' A belief that had them mistrust the Enterprise as representatives of the Federation and who some people actively went about sabotaging the efforts of First Contact out of cultural fear. (The Malcorian who forced Riker to shoot him, not knowing about Phaseer Stun settings.)

Ultimately it's also partly about choosing the lesser of two evils and absolving a Captain of fault should they choose to uphold the Prime Directive instead of trying to save a species and fail while doing so, often because of your own actions.
again, these are very specific examples, where their reaction was not desired, despite their best help. But I would like to point out, in most of these situations, they were guaranteed to die, but ended up dying by intervention, the out come was the same, but at least the people trying to save them made the effort. The out come would have been the same if they did nothing, and worst yet, what if this was a race that wouldn't have suicidal upon contact? Not lifting a finger would have actually doomed them based on the possibility that they would not survive anyway.

As far as the last example, it was not the time for first contact, and that eventually got worked out by Picard, so that the over all society was not drastically influenced. It wasn't pretty, but Picard acted in a manner that made him have to not only think, but also act to what was best for the culture.

the real question is this. Not knowing what all the ramifications will be, based on the knowledge that you can save a people by preventing the catastrophe, or sit idol and let them die, which would you do? and would you feel good about your decision? And can you call you actions morally right, given the context that life is too precious to waste and that we consider people letting others die because of inaction just as bad as the ones killing people?
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,319
# 19
06-07-2013, 05:14 PM
The Warp thing is used as a sign.

A sign that the particular species is ready to be approached by the greater galactic community. This was adopted from the Vulcans.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,627
# 20
06-07-2013, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by methodus2063 View Post
Any captain who sits there while others suffer with out lifting a finger is a coward ...
No, the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

You want a good example? imagine there is a plague now being a "good" Captain you break the Prime Directive and give then the tools to develop the cure ... everything is alright right?

Wrong because the exact same tools that can develop cure to illness can also be used to create bioweapons and that is exactly what happens, you just given then the means to develop bioweapons so did your "help with the suffering" not caused more deaths on the long run?

This is why there is a Prime Directive, interference can lead to disastrous results just in technology alone, society is a slippery slope because in the end you are just forcing a model into a civilization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundrelic View Post
The Warp thing is used as a sign.

A sign that the particular species is ready to be approached by the greater galactic community. This was adopted from the Vulcans.
I dont think it is, its just you have to deal with then because they can see you and find you ... at that point you can no longer ignore them and they also have a effect on you as they can reach your worlds.
Romulans ...
You start your career off as a simple farmer... then you launch yourself into a galaxy filled with intrigue, power plays, and high stakes games of interstellar conflict, as your career careens upwards onto your final destination ... a level capped Dilithium and Fleet Mark Farmer!

Last edited by f2pdrakron; 06-07-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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