Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 813
# 21
06-11-2013, 07:15 PM
Despite the cannon advantage, i still see many cruisers in PvP and PvE. The beam disadvantage still hasn't put people off.
Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey flings Feathered Monkey poo...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 22
06-11-2013, 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
I don't want power to be shifted to sci or cruisers and I don't expect ships to sit there and wait for you to kill them, however I do expect that no ship should have such high damage output and the capability to tank as some escorts can do.

Let escorts have huge damage outputs or reasonable tanking capability but not both. Why should one class get everything?
Indeed. I guess my engi cruiser that tanks and does DPS (less DPS than an escort but a lot tankier) is just not meant to exist at all.

Go figure!

You and others need to realize ships exist on a set of sliding scales, at one end you have low DPS potential but super tanky, on the other you have super DPS and low tanking. Once you know in which point of the scale you want to be at all you have left to do is pick which of the ships sitting at that point in DPS/Tankyness you want to get.

It really IS that simple. Unfortunately what most people complaining REALLY want is to sit at the extreme tanky side of the scale and do way more damage than a ship at that extreme end of the scale should do. If you want to play cruiser that can do significant DPS, you can. It just won't be as tanky as a Galaxy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,085
# 23
06-11-2013, 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
It really IS that simple.
Pretty sure he was saying the same thing...just coming from the angle for the Escort rather than the Cruiser. He wasn't complaining about boosting Cruiser DPS...he was complaining about the need to nerf Escort Tank.

Escort: ++DPS
Cruiser: ++Tank
Sci Vessel: +DPS/+Tank

Tac: ++DPS
Eng: ++Tank
Sci: +DPS/+Tank

DPSiest:
(4 DPS) Escort + Tac
(3 DPS) Escort + Sci or Sci Vessel + Tac
(2 DPS) Escort + Eng or Sci Vessel + Sci or Cruiser + Tac
(1 DPS) Cruiser + Sci
(0 DPS) Cruiser + Eng

Tankiest:
(4 Tank) Cruiser + Eng
(3 Tank) Cruiser + Sci or Sci Vessel + Eng
(2 Tank) Cruiser + Tac or Sci Vessel + Sci or Escort + Eng
(1 Tank) Escort + Sci
(0 Tank) Escort + Tac

Let's look at that 2's, eh?

(2 DPS/2 Tank)
Escort + Eng
Cruiser + Tac
Sci Vessel + Sci

The "balanced" middle...and if STO were more like that, there would likely be less complaints, eh? There might be new complaints and there still would be old complaints, but many of the complaints we see couldn't stand anymore...

...unfortunately, what's happened has been the following:

Boost DPS...benefits the Escort and Tac most, because of no diminishing returns.
Boost Tank...because of diminishing returns, benefits the least Tanky Ships and Careers most.

Tada...Cruiser Rage, Eng Rage, Cruiser+Eng Rage Galore...

...oh well.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 24
06-11-2013, 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Boost DPS...benefits the Escort and Tac most, because of no diminishing returns.
Boost Tank...because of diminishing returns, benefits the least Tanky Ships and Careers most.

Tada...Cruiser Rage, Eng Rage, Cruiser+Eng Rage Galore...

...oh well.
And that's exactly where most people get it wrong. The boost to tanking has come from improvements to shield resistance and regen, not hull. It benefits all classes equally. What this allows cruiser to do is twofold.

First, it allows one to build a superlative tank so its possible to run all PvE as a zombie tank. Not terribly fun but VERY easy. Some people like that.

Second, it allows for a cruiser to shift resources to offences, more than it'd be able to without the tanky boosts. Its why you can tank with an Aux2Batt build regardless of the loss of aux power while having the equivalent of 8 boff powers in a Fleet AC, two of which are Lt. CMDR level!

Beyond that, surely it has escaped no one's notice that a lot of the rep set are specifically set to boost cruiser and even sci vessel DPS? Is there any serious cruiser pilot that doesn't want the Tholian rep console or the no power using Beam Array?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,085
# 25
06-11-2013, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
And that's exactly where most people get it wrong. The boost to tanking has come from improvements to shield resistance and regen, not hull. It benefits all classes equally. What this allows cruiser to do is twofold.
The boost to tanking has come in many flavors.

Yes, there have been the additions to Shield Tanking. Whether one is talking Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Superior Shield Repair, or partially from Auxiliary Power Config - Defense with Reputation...the addition of Elite Fleet Shields or even the Embassy Science Consoles providing higher Shield Regen or Shield Emitters (as well as the Shield Heal proc for them)...yep, there's been a bunch added for shields.

Aux Power Config - Defense also boosts Hull healing. There's also a Hull heal proc for the Embassy Science Consoles. There's the Hull-Repairing Nanites and Fortified Hull Reputation passives. They're adding Fleet Armor Consoles with the next holding. You can proc a Hull HoT off the DCE(AtS) DOFFs. The new WCE DOFF has a 40% chance to clear hazards. There have been changes reducing the amount of damage done from Tricobalts, Transphasics, and other mines as well as Plasma DoTs from EWP/DEW/Torps/Miines...etc, etc, etc.

Sure, there's Elite Fleet Disruptors that reduce Shield Damage Reduction. There's the Enhanced Shield Penetration and Omega Graviton Amplifier from the Rep system. Various things that...require hitting the target. What's easier to hit? Escort or Cruiser/Sci Vessel?

Escort: Maneuverability, Hull, Shield
Cruiser: Hull, Shield, Maneuverability
Sci Vessel: Shield, Maneuverability, Hull

With no DR on Maneuverability (outside of hitting the 25% min To-Hit with Acc vs. Def), which benefits the most from boosts to Maneuverability? Escort.
With the changes to Hull, both + and -, while taking into consideration Maneuverability as well as diminishing returns (can't look at things in isolation); which benefits the most from boost to Hull? Escort.
With the overall changes to Shields, taking into account diminishing returns and Maneuverability; which benefits the most from the boost to Shields? Escort.

Avoidance > Mitigation. With Avoidance, there will be reduced damage done requiring Mitigation...so any boosts to Mitigation will be reflected greater in a vessel with higher Avoidance than one with lower Avoidance.

Did you notice the changes that took place with EM and Defense? Dropped from 25 to 15 then back up to 25 based on speed? Who does that benefit the most? The least? EPtE?

The list goes on and on and on and on and on...almost everything that is buffed in the game, benefits Escorts and Tacs more than Cruisers/Sci Vessels or Eng/Sci Captains.

That's before even getting into a "team" environment with crosshealing and the like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
First, it allows one to build a superlative tank so its possible to run all PvE as a zombie tank. Not terribly fun but VERY easy. Some people like that.
You can build all the tank you need for PvE into a BoP. You can tank a Tac Cube in a BoP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Second, it allows for a cruiser to shift resources to offences, more than it'd be able to without the tanky boosts. Its why you can tank with an Aux2Batt build regardless of the loss of aux power while having the equivalent of 8 boff powers in a Fleet AC, two of which are Lt. CMDR level!
Since you can tank in a BoP...tanking in a Cruiser should be /faceroll. The BoP will still do more meaningful damage than the Cruiser. Less damage done to kill a target is better than more damage done to kill a target eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Beyond that, surely it has escaped no one's notice that a lot of the rep set are specifically set to boost cruiser and even sci vessel DPS? Is there any serious cruiser pilot that doesn't want the Tholian rep console or the no power using Beam Array?
Omega Torp, Borg Console, Cutting Beam
Hyper Torp, 0Point Console, Experimental Array
Hyper-Dual Beam, Nukara Console, Web Mines

The Omega Torp, Cutting Beam, Hyper Torp, Experimental Array, Hyper-Dual DBA, and Web Mines will all do more damage if used on an Escort than on a Cruiser or with a Tac instead of an Eng.

The Borg Console boost CrtH, CrtD, Wep Power, Hull Repair, and Grav Gens.
The 0Point Console boosts Subsystem Power, Power Insulators, and CrtH.
The Nukara Console boosts Shield Power, Power Insulators, Part Gens, and Beam Accuracy.

2pc Adapted provides a 2.5% chance to apply OWA (+10 Wep Power, +500 Weapon Drain Resist).
3pc Adapted provides a 1% chance for Reactive Deflection (the Green Diaper...near 99% damage reduction for a couple of secs).

2pc Harness provides +7.6% Plasma Damage (DEW/DEW DoT) and +15.2 EPS.
3pc Harness provides Plasma Hyperflux...boosting the Experimental Array (beefy DoT and HDR debuff).

2pc Appropriated provides +7.6% Tetryon Damage and +15.2 Flow Caps.
3pc Appropriated provides Refracting Assault...boosting the Hyper Dual Beam (FAW/BO hit additional targets).

So sure, one can see where a Cruiser-jock might want in on some of that. One can see where a Sci-jock might want in on some of that. But one could also see where the Escort-jock might want in on some of that.

So again, what's wrong with the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Escort: ++DPS
Cruiser: ++Tank
Sci Vessel: +DPS/+Tank

Tac: ++DPS
Eng: ++Tank
Sci: +DPS/+Tank

DPSiest:
(4 DPS) Escort + Tac
(3 DPS) Escort + Sci or Sci Vessel + Tac
(2 DPS) Escort + Eng or Sci Vessel + Sci or Cruiser + Tac
(1 DPS) Cruiser + Sci
(0 DPS) Cruiser + Eng

Tankiest:
(4 Tank) Cruiser + Eng
(3 Tank) Cruiser + Sci or Sci Vessel + Eng
(2 Tank) Cruiser + Tac or Sci Vessel + Sci or Escort + Eng
(1 Tank) Escort + Sci
(0 Tank) Escort + Tac

Let's look at that 2's, eh?

(2 DPS/2 Tank)
Escort + Eng
Cruiser + Tac
Sci Vessel + Sci

The "balanced" middle...and if STO were more like that, there would likely be less complaints, eh? There might be new complaints and there still would be old complaints, but many of the complaints we see couldn't stand anymore...
Why all the deflection away from trying to look at balancing things? I mean, that list there is pretty simple...the guy you replied to made a pretty simple statement that you ignored to reply with something he didn't say. You ignored what I said to try to offer partial truths...

There's a big difference between some of us that want a balanced game and those that want to fly as Cruiser+Eng and do everything an Escort+Tac can do. We laugh at those folks just like most do.

A balanced game would be a good thing, no? Why all the objections?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 327
# 26
06-12-2013, 12:07 AM
You should embrace the STO Escort Master Race in all it's glory, and not be a dirty cruiser peasant or an even filthier science servant.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 27
06-12-2013, 12:21 AM
nothing to do with LoR, the decloaking with full damage and buffs is garbage
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,096
# 28
06-12-2013, 12:31 AM
simple solution:
if playing PvP from Queue then everyone should be automatically transported in T1 vessels with no doff buffs and everyone is armed with phaser or disruptor beams.

problem solved
How to really behave in online forums with developers

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 29
06-12-2013, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post

A balanced game would be a good thing, no? Why all the objections?
Its easy to counter things if one decides to simply handwave away other's points.

As to that layout you keep pushing, I don't think for a moment that would work for a multitude of reasons. But its not necessary to go into that. Suffice it to say that Cryptic's game development, engagement, retention and monetization model would not work at all with it.

What you describe sounds a lot like what the game's original meta was suppossed to be like. In practice being at the extreme squishy end of things was problematic at best but that was more a result of unpolished and untested game balance than anything else.

However, as Cryptic tries to release bitesize content and include both a way to monetize it and carrots for players to chase they cannot hope to keep the innate balance you are pushing for. What you want is based on classes and ships being balanced. That's great but as gear and rep passives get released that balance will shift while the classes and ships remain static.

They have to, not only would changing them represent a PR nightmare if they are store bought, Cryptic doesn't work in a way that allows organic growth in existing aspects of the game. They work on whatever new thing they have and the rest of the game can become a bug ridden ant farm and nothing would get done unless its too game breaking or somehow allows for players circumventing the grinds.

What balance we have now, with Crpytic pushing for a lot of new gear and benefits for cruisers is how they hope to balance the game in the eyes of players. The days of rigind class roles are pretty much gone, now everyone tanks, does DPS and CC's. Destroyers and Hybrids rule the skies as they should. The mere dea of a ship that's a glass cannon or a toothless tank is pretty silly for fantasy RPGs, but downright idiotic for a space game.

As a final note:

If things were as unbalanced as you claim, why is it that when i look around me all I see is cruisers and carriers with a few escorts and sci vessels scattered here and there?

I get that everyone wants to do damage and feel cool, but if you can't get that feeling out of doing space magic or being a juggernaught cruiser then those ships are not for you. No matter how much you wish it cruisers will never be as DPS-y as escorts, and while you can argue that things are not balanced (the measure of balance is subjective after all) I will disagree based on my own ships and builds I've done and play with constantly.

I HAVE a tacscort and an engi cruiser. I like that they play differently and i personally feel that if you add the tankyness and DPS of each they are pretty similar. One performs better in some cases and that varies based on many factors. With one I can stay in the middle of any fight and wade through anything, with the other I have to constantly be zipping about. And yet both are fun and entertaining. Yet my cruiser is no slouch in the damage dealing department and my escort can usually go one on one with the E-Cure Negh'Var and Raptor, unless the cube butts in then its a lot dicier.

Honestly, I feel a lot of player's perception is based on not having worked out how to play and gear up a cruiser right. I will wholeheartedly admit that cruiser while being easier to pilot require a bit more resources invested into them before they shine. So most people are reluctant to do it without being sure of it being a worthwhile investment. But players that want to do damage in a cruiser just need to suck it up and get working on figuring out how to play a cruiser and what gear they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 30
06-12-2013, 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by notapwefan View Post
simple solution:
if playing PvP from Queue then everyone should be automatically transported in T1 vessels with no doff buffs and everyone is armed with phaser or disruptor beams.

problem solved
Could we choose to use shuttles instead of T1 ships? I usually do the first 10 levels in a shuttle anyway... its more fun to fly and practically as powerful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Reply

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