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Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 91
06-14-2013, 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
I don't really call the Romulan storyline a negative impact, in fact I find it to be a quite compelling storyline, regardless of where it came from originally. The point is, these events are now officially canon.
Not really.

JJ glossed over the Hobus thing (unless there's something in Into Darkness I'm unaware of, as I haven't seen it yet); maintaining canon between prime and JJ is as simple as saying the Romulan star system was destroyed when the Romulan star mysteriously went nova, or began the process of going nova; Nero could easily blame Spock as the result of misinformation.

That whole Countdown comic can be readily tossed without breaking canon.

My personal preference, and one which Cryptic probably wrote themselves out of by so hastily turning to the Borg for content, would have been to incorporate Romulans into the Borg conflict. Voyager established the Borg as being in the delta quadrant, and at the end of Voyager they destroy at least part of the Borg's transwarp network; for the Borg to continue to press the attack, they presumably need to go through the beta quadrant, ie Romulan territory.

A story which featured the Romulans in a losing battle against the Borg would have been interesting. Their own pride kept them from turning to the Federation for assistance sooner. Experiments with Borg technology, which incidentally produced the Narada, eventually result in a disaster on or near the Romulan homeworld. Ideally, it's not the Tal'Shiar running the experiments. Faced with the likelihood of a fully assimilated Romulus, the Tal'Shiar choose to destroy the entire system by triggering the Romulan star to go nova. Nero blames Spock because he's crazy, misinformed, and in the super deluxe bonus feature edition of the collector's DVD actually wears a tinfoil hat. Everyone knows the Tal'Shiar did it, but what no one knows is that the entire planet was already in the process of being assimilated, and the Tal'Shiar both spared their people from a fate worse than death as well as saved this side of the galaxy from the greatest potential threat the Borg have presented (to date, or since ST:First Contact could be debated).

Instead they give Romulans a story better suited for Cardassians, and will no doubt give Cardassians a story better suited for Ferengi, or something equally absurd.

Last edited by millimidget; 06-14-2013 at 09:21 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 129
# 92
06-14-2013, 09:25 PM
... what I find confusing is why so many people seem so eager to throw out STO from even the possibility of some canonicity in its storylines. Is it a bad thing to continue Star Trek beyond Nemesis?
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 93
06-14-2013, 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
Is it a bad thing to continue Star Trek beyond Nemesis?
Not if it's done well.

The only problem is, everyone who seems to get their hands on the IP aims for Pax Foederare Galaxiae while trying to slip in as much politically correct nonsense as possible.

I'm taking bets on which LGBT flavor the next prime canon captain will be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 129
# 94
06-14-2013, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by millimidget View Post
Not if it's done well.

The only problem is, everyone who seems to get their hands on the IP aims for Pax Foederare Galaxiae while trying to slip in as much politically correct nonsense as possible.

I'm taking bets on which LGBT flavor the next prime canon captain will be.
um... explain Pax Foederare Galaxiae please, as well as LGBT.

And again, I was referring to timeline of events as candidates for canon. That is WHEN the Hobus Nova occurred, when New Romulus was founded, when the Klingon war began,... things like that. Canonicity does NOT mean every single little teeny thing in STO must therefore also be fully-canon. We (at least some of us) are only intending for basic storyline events and major plot points to be included, thus adding legitimacy to STO, rather than canonic shovelware like the Starfleet Command series (great games in their own right).
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Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 95
06-15-2013, 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
um... explain Pax Foederare Galaxiae please, as well as LGBT.
Galactic peace, Federation style. It seems an inevitable conclusion, because everyone wants to trump the last guy who got his hands on the IP, ie powercreep for stories. But once the Federation rules the entire Milky Way, what's left? War against the Q?

The LGBT line should be obvious. We've hit several key demographics already; dramatic men, bald men, black men, power suit women, however you'd want to classify Bakula.... my point being, the IP has suffered from an overt attempt to push some sociopolitical views. Characters don't even seem to struggle over doing the right thing; they exhibit hardly more critical thinking than a Borg drone.

This is why I find gutting the RSE so frustrating; eliminating or subjugating every potential antagonist of the Federation just solidifies the march towards PFG (that really is a mouthful). Cliched villains, like what STO offers Sela, the RSE and the Tal'Shiar up as, just aren't as compelling, or as realistic.

I think they hit on a few elements that had the potential for success; a new Fed-Klingon war would be great, but failed here for whatever reason. Seeing the prophets return the Dominion fleet was great, and I'd love to see a future series use that. I could probably find a few more things worth holding onto, but that's really the way to treat any soft-canon or fan-fiction; use it for a handful of good ideas, but otherwise toss the bulk of it.

Last edited by millimidget; 06-15-2013 at 12:08 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 129
# 96
06-15-2013, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by millimidget View Post
Galactic peace, Federation style. It seems an inevitable conclusion, because everyone wants to trump the last guy who got his hands on the IP, ie powercreep for stories. But once the Federation rules the entire Milky Way, what's left? War against the Q?

The LGBT line should be obvious. We've hit several key demographics already; dramatic men, bald men, black men, power suit women, however you'd want to classify Bakula.... my point being, the IP has suffered from an overt attempt to push some sociopolitical views. Characters don't even seem to struggle over doing the right thing; they exhibit hardly more critical thinking than a Borg drone.

This is why I find gutting the RSE so frustrating; eliminating or subjugating every potential antagonist of the Federation just solidifies the march towards PFG (that really is a mouthful). Cliched villains, like what STO offers Sela, the RSE and the Tal'Shiar up as, just aren't as compelling, or as realistic.

I think they hit on a few elements that had the potential for success; a new Fed-Klingon war would be great, but failed here for whatever reason. Seeing the prophets return the Dominion fleet was great, and I'd love to see a future series use that. I could probably find a few more things worth holding onto, but that's really the way to treat any soft-canon or fan-fiction; use it for a handful of good ideas, but otherwise toss the bulk of it.
Using "its not that good" as reasoning is a bit of a fallacy, as there are many events in Voyager that are utter crap (reference "Threshold") and yet ARE official canon. Once again, canonicity depends entirely on what the studio and/or franchise owner determines is such. Good or not.

And once again, I am only talking about timeline of events here, not little details.

and by "explain LGBT" I meant what does that acronym stand for. All I see is meaningless letters, unless you establish it beforehand (without requiring someone to scroll up to previous posts). As for "flavor of captain"... what, you wanted the same character type in each series? Since Star Trek has always used itself as a platform to explore sociological issues, it is only appropriate that each captain have different traits as a potential focus for this.
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Last edited by keiichi2032; 06-15-2013 at 01:20 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 97
06-15-2013, 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captclazorus View Post
If you can get Cbs to allow you to create such a large game and if you can get Leonard Nimoy to narrate think it should be canon. Almost all events in the game correlate with fact.
------------------------------------


STO is not Canon

The Galaxy class , Nebula Class and Intrepid class prove that by any Doubt
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 98
06-15-2013, 01:46 AM
Right then guys.

"Canon" is basically whatever the suits in charge pick, even if it's terrible.

The TV shows and movies are all canon, even the JJ Abrams films. Those are just in a separate timeline from our 'main' universe.

Books and videogames, like STO, are "soft canon", meaning that they're not really established as canon, but as long as they don't contradict canon, can probably be used to explain things.

Sometimes the suits will decide to incorporate soft canon into one of the tv shows, promoting it to canon.

STO is not technically canon. But simply deriding it as "non-canon" would be incorrect. There are some definitely non-canon bits, but in all it's probably just "soft-canon".
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 99
06-15-2013, 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
Using "its not that good" as reasoning is a bit of a fallacy, as there are many events in Voyager that are utter crap (reference "Threshold") and yet ARE official canon. Once again, canonicity depends entirely on what the studio and/or franchise owner determines is such. Good or not.
Actually, as far as I understand it, it's whatever the writer of "canonical" material determines it to be, which includes overturning previous canon. So all those Voyager foibles could be easily resolved by hiring a writer willing to readily dismiss them as necessary, especially the more egregious ones. Admittedly, I haven't watched Voyager comprehensively, and actually like some of their more ludicrous moments (Janeway and Paris becoming warp 10 salamanders, for one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
And once again, I am only talking about timeline of events here, not little details.
In some cases, I don't know how you separate the two. Romulus destroyed? Fine. By a subspace super nova triggered by the Tal'Shiar in the next sector over? Silly, to the point of being ridiculous. Merging the RSE and the Tal'Shiar into essentially a single entity because it facilitates both Cryptic's implementation of the Romulan player faction and Cryptic's own personal desire for a hippy-fest? Beyond ridiculous.

But where would you draw the line? Where would you trust someone else to draw the line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keiichi2032 View Post
and by "explain LGBT" I meant what does that acronym stand for. All I see is meaningless letters, unless you establish it beforehand (without requiring someone to scroll up to previous posts). As for "flavor of captain"... what, you wanted the same character type in each series? Since Star Trek has always used itself as a platform to explore sociological issues, it is only appropriate that each captain have different traits as a potential focus for this.
Lesbian Gay Bisexual Trans-something (transgender, transvestite, IDK, I don't even know if they know).

My point being, diversity is fine, but don't make it the focal point of a character or the series. The IP doesn't exist to promote same sex marriage, or any other contemporary sociopolitical cause, but rather to question our humanity in the face of the unknown/alien.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 129
# 100
06-15-2013, 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flightofcrimson View Post
Right then guys.

"Canon" is basically whatever the suits in charge pick, even if it's terrible.

The TV shows and movies are all canon, even the JJ Abrams films. Those are just in a separate timeline from our 'main' universe.

Books and videogames, like STO, are "soft canon", meaning that they're not really established as canon, but as long as they don't contradict canon, can probably be used to explain things.

Sometimes the suits will decide to incorporate soft canon into one of the tv shows, promoting it to canon.

STO is not technically canon. But simply deriding it as "non-canon" would be incorrect. There are some definitely non-canon bits, but in all it's probably just "soft-canon".
I would like to further emphasize the "elements of" part, as people continue to look at STO as a whole being canon or not. ... quite frankly, I really wish people would stop making issues be a "black or white", "this or that" problem.

Everything is a matter of degree, and in this case, its that the basic timeline of major events is canon, as approved by CBS.
Names and events themselves are more a soft-canon, as they are open for revision based on CBS and Paramount's wishes for further continuation.
details and anything related to gameplay experience and player control are non-canon, as they have no justification from the franchise itself, and thus no basis in approved storyline, and therefore non-canon

So, as we see, there are canon, soft-canon, and non-canon elements all throughout STO. So the correct answer would be both yes and no.

There is NO reason to not include the timeline of major events into Star Trek canon, some of which are (arguably) already there.
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