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# 31
09-08-2013, 09:44 PM
May I ask where you are getting these stellar locations from?

You're indicating that your map is based off the Real-Life Positions of Stars, but I'm seeing stars that aren't where they supposed to be. I'm seeing may star systems in wrong locations. Procyon, Vega, several of the Rosses.

Also, I greatly disagree your assessment of the Expanse. It supposed to be coreward of Earth. The location of the The Themoberic clouds coincides with the edge of the Galactic Spiral arm we are in, and the areas between the spiral arms are expanses. Among other things.




I applaud you for your very hard work, but there is so many errors with real star locations. Also your work suggests that Geoffery Mandel was wrong with his Star Trek Star Charts, who spent years studying Star Trek canon and maping real life stars. Whom Cryptic based their Star Maps off.
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Last edited by azurianstar; 09-08-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 167
# 32
09-09-2013, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
May I ask where you are getting these stellar locations from?

You're indicating that your map is based off the Real-Life Positions of Stars, but I'm seeing stars that aren't where they supposed to be. I'm seeing may star systems in wrong locations. Procyon, Vega, several of the Rosses.

I applaud you for your very hard work, but there is so many errors with real star locations. Also your work suggests that Geoffery Mandel was wrong with his Star Trek Star Charts, who spent years studying Star Trek canon and maping real life stars. Whom Cryptic based their Star Maps off.
So I take this to mean that you think Star Charts shows correct locations? Because if that is so, you are gravely mistaken. Star Charts forces star locations to fit canon, I have done the reverse and forced canon to fit star locations. And while I am not claiming 100% accurate locations, each location is within at least a light year of where it should be.

I'd like to know where you think Vega and Procyon should be.

Vega's data is: 18h 36m +38 at a distance of 25 LY

that data is taken and crunched in an angle and hypotenuse algorithm that spits out the top down 2D map location for that data in accordance with the orientations of that place with all the "Vulcan Sector" stars within the "Vulcan Sector" (asides from Wolf 359 which simply could not be made to fit and still produce an equal split between four quadrants)...it also produces a couple other outputs so that if 3D maps are ever needed it can be easily adjusted to a couple possibilities of that

but lets go ahead and check this all out, just in case I'm wrong, so starting from the "bottom" of the sector I've labeled as "Tellar Sector"

61 Cygni @21h 6m ;; +38 11 LY
Delta Pavonis @20h 8m ;; -66 20 LY
Altair @ 19h 50m ;; +8 17 LY
Gliese 733 @18h 54m ;; -22 20 LY
Vega @18h 36m ;; +38 25 LY
Chi Draconis @ 18h 21m ;; +72 26 LY
70 Ophiuchi @18h 5m ;; +2 17 LY
36 Ophiuchi @17h 15m ;; -26 20 LY

You see how those hours/minutes consistently go down? that's because we are progressing around the celestial equator...so Vega is absolutely oriented according to "real life" -- you see? And each and every star is plotted the exact same way using the same calculations.

now your next question is going to be why isn't it 25 squares (LY) away from Sol...thats because a calculation is done which produces the hypotenuse of the triangle that stars z-position is in relation to sol and eliminates the "distance" the star travels "up towards" or "down away" from your eye as you look at the 2D representation (i.e., "flattens" the map)...which is why I took the trouble to concurrently calculate a couple different z-axis solutions for the future...there is simply no way in the 2D method presented with STO's sector maps to show the proper distance relationship, so the compromise is made to surrender that z-axis portion (for now, if STO ever goes to using a 3D map method I'm ready.)

Procyon:

Wolf 359 10 56 +7
Procyon 7 39 +5
Sirius 6 45 -16
40 Eridani 4 15 -7
Epsilion Eridani 3 32 +9

Once again, the orientation proceeds around the celestial equator as it should and all the players are orientated in relation to Sol as they should be. (note the same order on Star Charts is Sirius, Procyon, 40 Eridani...and is thus, wrong. For that matter, Star Chart's P'Jem location doesn't even make sense given canon, because in canon it is suppose to be closer to Procyon than Vulcan...which it is in real life also.)

So, hopefully you'll see that I've established the bonafides of Procyon and Vega's locations, both in orientation and distance.

Moving on to the next thing:

As you can see with the "voyages" information provided, I've been fairly exhaustive in establishing the the range of possible travel time per day within the various shows own consistency envelopes using known points. After that (as explained) it is a fairly simple operation to order the episodes according to their given chronology and produce how far such-and-such could have traveled if they made their "minimum" or "maximum" average rates and see where that puts you.

In plotting unknown points you simply work "out" from the known points along this "voyage timeline"

As I've said before, this is a process of reconciliation between Star Charts (which are both non-canon and not necessarily accurate representation of "real" space) -- and STO's own maps which only *loosely* follow Star Charts, and that was for want of taking the time to make their own maps during development.

As far as the Delphic Expanse:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Delphic_Expanse

It makes no reference to what you allude to. The use of the term "expanse" had nothing to do with the areas between the spiral arms -- merely one denoting a large area of space.

As for the last emotional appeal towards Star Charts and my supposed impugning of Geoffrey Mandel's honor in relation to that...as I've said already, this is a reconciliation and Star Charts is just one set of data which is being reconciled to "real life" -- the work on Star Charts is great, and it informs a lot of what goes on in this work I'm doing...but as I've also said already: Star Charts surrenders real star positions to the dictates of canon -- and I suspect there is no day by day and episode to episode, season to season travel time analysis like I've done here within that work.

My primary source is Memory Alpha, I sit down and read every bit of info available on locations mentioned in an episode as I go through the voyage list, including the notations about Star Charts and other sources and do my best to locate something that meets all the reasonable matching conditions. It's not a willy-nilly operation where I say, "oh screw it, how about just put this right here and call it good?"

If Memory Alpha calls out Alpha Whatsits bayer designation, then that's the first place we look to see if that actual Bayer designation exists and is reasonably located along the voyage route...if it calls out for a an "F class" star then we'll look for an F-class around the rough 5 LY area where this episode took place...if there's no F, we check for a G-class...if it calls out for a giant-class star, we find that...if its an orange giant, we find that if it works out.

I also use Star Charts as a source...I'll check between the sector I'm working on and the Star Charts area and then look up the stars Star Charts puts in that area in Memory Alpha and cross check to the voyage routes, etc, etc.
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Last edited by realmalize; 09-09-2013 at 01:27 AM.
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# 33
09-09-2013, 07:25 AM
Have you considered trying to map the Beta Ursae block like this? Because right now I have 53 Arietis within 38 minutes at warp nine-plus of the Malon System. (Granted, according to the TNG Technical Manual speeds increase exponentially at warp factors above 9...)
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Last edited by starswordc; 09-09-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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Posts: 167
# 34
09-09-2013, 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
Have you considered trying to map the Beta Ursae block like this? Because right now I have 53 Arietis within 38 minutes at warp nine-plus of the Malon System. (Granted, according to the TNG Technical Manual speeds increase exponentially at warp factors above 9...)
I haven't published the detailed maps yet, but the named systems of the work completed to date have been plotted on the overall map:

http://malsmaps.files.wordpress.com/...stomap2x12.jpg

53 Arietis
Spec B2V
RAh 03, RAm 07, Dec +17, Dist 800 LY
-65 X, -797 Y

But as I've said before, stories (like Trek canon) can do all kinds of things with distances and realities...so if 53 Arietis is your goal, then use it


As far as overall progress, I'm out to about the 80 LY radius more or less...but the primary dataset I have dies out around 100 LY...and due to technical reasons, dim M-class stars are harder to find past that point apparently so some of the detail will die out as I progress further than 100 LY from Sol (at least for those dim red stars)

to address questions of sources, I take the stellar data from two astronomical databases:

the primary name & distance listing database is from Sol Station (http://www.solstation.com/stars.htm)
the primary detail (shortest/best id, RAh, RAm, Dec, single, binary, trinary, etc.) database is SIMBAD Astronomical Database (http://simbad.harvard.edu/simbad/)

basically the overall listing of stars within 100 LY of all types I took from Sol Station's listings and then looked *each one up* in the SIMBAD database, eliminating duplicates and selecting the shortest, easiest to reference name for each star (stars often have several catalog identifications, I wanted to make sure the easiest to look up reference id was shown for each star so people could look up a star for themselves in a stellar database...like SIMBAD...for their own research, edification, etc.)

I can continue detail mapping past 100 LY, but that'll mean making custom searches on some astronomy dbs which are not really oriented towards providing info in the convenient fashion sol station is organized.

I have data on some stars past 100 LY because I've also sourced the constellations wiki list of stars (example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stars_in_Orion) ... however within 100 LY the other two primary sources take precedence.

so like with starsword's query about 53 Arietis, you can pull the info up from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stars_in_Aries to verify
Real Sector Maps - Online Atlas - for Star Trek/STO
Foundry Missions:
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Last edited by realmalize; 09-09-2013 at 08:05 AM.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,985
# 35
09-09-2013, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by realmalize View Post
So I take this to mean that you think Star Charts shows correct locations? Because if that is so, you are gravely mistaken. Star Charts forces star locations to fit canon, I have done the reverse and forced canon to fit star locations. And while I am not claiming 100% accurate locations, each location is within at least a light year of where it should be.
I talked to Geoffrey Mandel personally and he told me he used real star locations when making the Star Trek Star charts. And best to my knowledge, there were no real life stars moved to fit canon, since there was no real life stars shown in the various Star Trek Charts seen on screen.

Quote:
I'd like to know where you think Vega and Procyon should be.

Vega's data is: 18h 36m +38 at a distance of 25 LY

that data is taken and crunched in an angle and hypotenuse algorithm that spits out the top down 2D map location for that data in accordance with the orientations of that place with all the "Vulcan Sector" stars within the "Vulcan Sector" (asides from Wolf 359 which simply could not be made to fit and still produce an equal split between four quadrants)...it also produces a couple other outputs so that if 3D maps are ever needed it can be easily adjusted to a couple possibilities of that

but lets go ahead and check this all out, just in case I'm wrong, so starting from the "bottom" of the sector I've labeled as "Tellar Sector"

61 Cygni @21h 6m ;; +38 11 LY
Delta Pavonis @20h 8m ;; -66 20 LY
Altair @ 19h 50m ;; +8 17 LY
Gliese 733 @18h 54m ;; -22 20 LY
Vega @18h 36m ;; +38 25 LY
Chi Draconis @ 18h 21m ;; +72 26 LY
70 Ophiuchi @18h 5m ;; +2 17 LY
36 Ophiuchi @17h 15m ;; -26 20 LY

You see how those hours/minutes consistently go down? that's because we are progressing around the celestial equator...so Vega is absolutely oriented according to "real life" -- you see? And each and every star is plotted the exact same way using the same calculations.

now your next question is going to be why isn't it 25 squares (LY) away from Sol...thats because a calculation is done which produces the hypotenuse of the triangle that stars z-position is in relation to sol and eliminates the "distance" the star travels "up towards" or "down away" from your eye as you look at the 2D representation (i.e., "flattens" the map)...which is why I took the trouble to concurrently calculate a couple different z-axis solutions for the future...there is simply no way in the 2D method presented with STO's sector maps to show the proper distance relationship, so the compromise is made to surrender that z-axis portion (for now, if STO ever goes to using a 3D map method I'm ready.)

Procyon:

Wolf 359 10 56 +7
Procyon 7 39 +5
Sirius 6 45 -16
40 Eridani 4 15 -7
Epsilion Eridani 3 32 +9

Once again, the orientation proceeds around the celestial equator as it should and all the players are orientated in relation to Sol as they should be. (note the same order on Star Charts is Sirius, Procyon, 40 Eridani...and is thus, wrong. For that matter, Star Chart's P'Jem location doesn't even make sense given canon, because in canon it is suppose to be closer to Procyon than Vulcan...which it is in real life also.)

So, hopefully you'll see that I've established the bonafides of Procyon and Vega's locations, both in orientation and distance.
Not going to dispute the coordinates since they are correct (since you can find it online, like on Wiki), but what is your math? You using proper Polar to Rectangular conversion tables?

Why I'm asking this is there are people on the internet of various astronomical backgrounds (from professional to amateur) who mapped out Real Life star locations. Many plotting the real stars within 50 Light Years and I'm seeing differences between your maps.

So who is correct?

May I ask what is your astronomical background?

Quote:
Moving on to the next thing:

As you can see with the "voyages" information provided, I've been fairly exhaustive in establishing the the range of possible travel time per day within the various shows own consistency envelopes using known points. After that (as explained) it is a fairly simple operation to order the episodes according to their given chronology and produce how far such-and-such could have traveled if they made their "minimum" or "maximum" average rates and see where that puts you.

In plotting unknown points you simply work "out" from the known points along this "voyage timeline"

As I've said before, this is a process of reconciliation between Star Charts (which are both non-canon and not necessarily accurate representation of "real" space) -- and STO's own maps which only *loosely* follow Star Charts, and that was for want of taking the time to make their own maps during development.
The basic reasoning is sound, finding a true location and use that as a reference point. And calculating possible distance traveled via the stardates.

But the thing is, how do you calculate the direction the Enterprise Traveled? When I look at your map, I make the assumption that you just arbitrarily sending the Enterprise to the Galactic Southwest. Or are going "okay, I got X days to the next location at Y Speed" and choose star that happens to fit that possible radius?

And what of unknowns like "speed of plot", possible changes in warp speed, and even unlisted stops that could have occurred?

(BTW, you also factoring in the star types? I know it's not often but what if you have a yellow sun and the only star at that location was a red dwarf?)

Quote:
As far as the Delphic Expanse:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Delphic_Expanse

It makes no reference to what you allude to. The use of the term "expanse" had nothing to do with the areas between the spiral arms -- merely one denoting a large area of space.
Given your defensive response, I have to assume you just happen to arbitrarily put down the Expanse's location.

My evidence is sound, that the edge of the expanse was canonically stated to be 50 light years from Earth, and it canonically stated they traveled months to get through the expanse. Which fits precisely with the edge of the Orion spiral arm to the Carina spiral arm.

Which also fits Star Trek canon, why they explored towards the Galactic Core, and we never had episodes going in that direction. Which is why we never saw any other canonical races in the Expanse, and vice versa why we haven't seen Xindi in other Star Trek productions.


But it's your map, so do as you wish.

Quote:
As for the last emotional appeal towards Star Charts and my supposed impugning of Geoffrey Mandel's honor in relation to that...as I've said already, this is a reconciliation and Star Charts is just one set of data which is being reconciled to "real life" -- the work on Star Charts is great, and it informs a lot of what goes on in this work I'm doing...but as I've also said already: Star Charts surrenders real star positions to the dictates of canon -- and I suspect there is no day by day and episode to episode, season to season travel time analysis like I've done here within that work.
I humbly disagree.

Quote:
My primary source is Memory Alpha, I sit down and read every bit of info available on locations mentioned in an episode as I go through the voyage list, including the notations about Star Charts and other sources and do my best to locate something that meets all the reasonable matching conditions. It's not a willy-nilly operation where I say, "oh screw it, how about just put this right here and call it good?"

If Memory Alpha calls out Alpha Whatsits bayer designation, then that's the first place we look to see if that actual Bayer designation exists and is reasonably located along the voyage route...if it calls out for a an "F class" star then we'll look for an F-class around the rough 5 LY area where this episode took place...if there's no F, we check for a G-class...if it calls out for a giant-class star, we find that...if its an orange giant, we find that if it works out.

I also use Star Charts as a source...I'll check between the sector I'm working on and the Star Charts area and then look up the stars Star Charts puts in that area in Memory Alpha and cross check to the voyage routes, etc, etc.
Wait, you're getting all your Star Trek information from Memory Alpha and not researching the episodes?

No offense, but that seems like an injustice of research.
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# 36
09-09-2013, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
I talked to Geoffrey Mandel personally and he told me he used real star locations when making the Star Trek Star charts. And best to my knowledge, there were no real life stars moved to fit canon, since there was no real life stars shown in the various Star Trek Charts seen on screen.


There were no real life stars? Gamma Hydra isn't a real life star? *shrugs* ok. I mean, did you just give him a ring and ask? Or maybe you mis-remember what was said...because he obviously used lots of *real stars* on the map, but they often do not appear where they should...especially southern hemisphere stars for some reason.


Not going to dispute the coordinates since they are correct (since you can find it online, like on Wiki), but what is your math? You using proper Polar to Rectangular conversion tables?

Why I'm asking this is there are people on the internet of various astronomical backgrounds (from professional to amateur) who mapped out Real Life star locations. Many plotting the real stars within 50 Light Years and I'm seeing differences between your maps.

So who is correct?

May I ask what is your astronomical background?


Show me examples of the maps in question, links, etc. I've already laid out a ton of info here and at the blog site for you and you've provided nothing other than opinion so far.




The basic reasoning is sound, finding a true location and use that as a reference point. And calculating possible distance traveled via the stardates.

But the thing is, how do you calculate the direction the Enterprise Traveled?


If you are referencing Enterprise, I did the whole series at once so there were multiple fixed points to work from with which to "fill out" the missing points *and* the general heading needed to meet those points together, only occasionally were there "loose points" and with those there is some assumed unlisted stops (large gaps in time), if some reasonable unlisted stops can be inferred (sometimes these are mentioned in passing as places the ship has visited but not on screen.)


And what of unknowns like "speed of plot", possible changes in warp speed, and even unlisted stops that could have occurred?

This is all explained on the blog, it is the reason there is a range of distance possible. Also partially answered above.

(BTW, you also factoring in the star types? I know it's not often but what if you have a yellow sun and the only star at that location was a red dwarf?)
I've already answered this in an above post.

Given your defensive response, I have to assume you just happen to arbitrarily put down the Expanse's location.


There was nothing defensive about it, once again I referenced everything available...there was nothing that dictated the location of the expanse and once again, the usage of "expanse" was certainly not in reference to an existing feature...otherwise the usage would've continued after "the delphic expanse" effect had been removed.

Also, if you wish to reference the canon -- the Enterprise *did not* "get through" the expanse...the entire "xindi arc" took place *within* the expanse with few exceptions. They traveled more slowly through this area of space because of the anomalies, which is why the minimum distance is pretty much used the whole time for those stops. You're underlying assumption about where the Enterprise was at and doing is flawed...unless you'd like to present some hard evidence to the contrary that the Enterprise only *transited* the Expanse to get to Xindi space.

The only hard "clue" is the reference to Delphic...but the problem with that is that orienting the Delphic Expanse along the 21h-ish line with a 50 LY from Sol edge would create more canonical problems (no mention of it in DS9, Cardassian history, Bajoran history, Ferengi history, etc.) and it would have been a dominant presence for those races...you can't orient it around to the right hand because there is the First Federation...so the most logical thing to do was go to the left hand orientation.

Now maybe if there was a 3D representation there would be more room to work with, but there isn't and this is what we have to work with.


Which also fits Star Trek canon, why they explored towards the Galactic Core, and we never had episodes going in that direction. Which is why we never saw any other canonical races in the Expanse, and vice versa why we haven't seen Xindi in other Star Trek productions.


It's also a part of STO I'll remind you...there are Xindi diplomatic duty officer missions available in certain sector blocks. STO has canonized Xindi race proximity...and as I've stated a number of times already, this is a reconciliation of STO to "RL" also.

However, since you bring up a point of inferred logic -- the absence of a race from previous productions (where those races had not been invented) can just as easily be explained through more mundane circumstances. There are plenty of "one episode" races which simply "drop off the radar"...the Sheliak for one example. Space is a big place and not every race makes the choice to be around and in our face all the time...after all, what were the Trill doing all that time before DS9?


Wait, you're getting all your Star Trek information from Memory Alpha and not researching the episodes?

No offense, but that seems like an injustice of research.


I've already stated on the blog that I re-watched the ENTIRETY OF ENTERPRISE so as to not miss anything...and used Memory Alpha (which is a pretty good source since it often has production details absent in the episodes themselves)

Right now I'm working on TNG and I'm re-watching certain episodes I don't already know by heart or where I think there are details I need to know better.

I'm curious, what sources would you have me go to? I will gladly go to them if they can provide more handily in depth information than Memory Alpha. Is there some secret data source only you and a secret cabal have access to? Because it floors me that you think Memory Alpha's information is not anywhere near a sufficient starting point.

Answers above.
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Foundry Missions:
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Last edited by realmalize; 09-09-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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# 37
09-09-2013, 01:45 PM
I'd love to hear/read GM's feelings on this matter.

I rather doubt he would be as incisive as some would seem to like to believe.

Both projects are an exceptional quality product of their time.
I have several copies of the Star Charts, bought when they first became available.
(one set is mounted in 'reversible' frames and is hanging on my living-room walls.)

Too bad most publishers wouldn't touch something like this now-a-days.

Having a 'coffee-table' version of your efforts would be fabulous.

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Join Date: Oct 2012
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# 38
09-09-2013, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyny View Post
I'd love to hear/read GM's feelings on this matter.

I rather doubt he would be as incisive as some would seem to like to believe.

Both projects are an exceptional quality product of their time.
I have several copies of the Star Charts, bought when they first became available.
(one set is mounted in 'reversible' frames and is hanging on my living-room walls.)

Too bad most publishers wouldn't touch something like this now-a-days.

Having a 'coffee-table' version of your efforts would be fabulous.

Actually I saw there are a new set of maps coming out (either already or soon)

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/06/pre...y-deluxe-book/
Real Sector Maps - Online Atlas - for Star Trek/STO
Foundry Missions:
Scepter of Minos * Grapok in the Generals Lung * The Sky Above, The Clouds Below * Legend of the Inspector General (16+) * Miridoor (41+) * Survival Must Be Earned (a Klingon Romeo and Juliet story)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 167
# 39
09-09-2013, 04:13 PM
this may help azurianstar some:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2wc2lxl.gif

This is a *very* quick and dirty I did showing how the orientation works on someone else's map.

The stars are in the same rough positions as my calculations produced independently...there is certainly room for myself to make mistakes and there is rounding occurring which can also put things a bit off here and there...*but* in the overall things are oriented and in the appropriate spots.

Hopefully this'll put that to rest.

Now, asking "why the goofy orientation" would be valid if a person didn't take the time to read anything else explanatory...but as you can see from the linked image, the orientation of the primaries (Vulcan, Andor, etc.) within the Vulcan sector block determined the projection used on the overall map.
Real Sector Maps - Online Atlas - for Star Trek/STO
Foundry Missions:
Scepter of Minos * Grapok in the Generals Lung * The Sky Above, The Clouds Below * Legend of the Inspector General (16+) * Miridoor (41+) * Survival Must Be Earned (a Klingon Romeo and Juliet story)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 167
# 40
09-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Now see, just to prove the point that mistakes can be made...I just noticed that I typed a "20" instead of a "23" for Gliese 896/EQ Peg because of azurianstar bringing things up.

It happens.
Real Sector Maps - Online Atlas - for Star Trek/STO
Foundry Missions:
Scepter of Minos * Grapok in the Generals Lung * The Sky Above, The Clouds Below * Legend of the Inspector General (16+) * Miridoor (41+) * Survival Must Be Earned (a Klingon Romeo and Juliet story)
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